SPEAKER_01 0:23

All right. Welcome to episode three of Ed Leadership on Tap, Season Two. Gentlemen, how are we doing today?

SPEAKER_04 0:31

Not as good as you. You know, I know all the listeners don't know, but you just got back from a pretty, pretty epic trip here.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Yeah, he's looking relaxed and and uh ready to roll for the next school year.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

That was it was an awesome trip. I spent 12 days in Spain. Probably the highlight was spending a day with watching the Vuelta España, and actually spending it with my favorite team, Team Visimalisa bike. So I got to see some of the riders, watched the stage along three different routes, three different points.

SPEAKER_04 1:04

So now for those who who might have missed prior episodes, tell them what the Vuelta Espana is.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

That is a 21-day bicycle race.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

Like a Tour de France, basically. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

There's three grand tours. The Tour de France is probably the best known one, but Spain has the Velta, and then Italy has the Giro.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Okay. Okay. How far apart are each of these?

SPEAKER_01 1:29

The Giro is the first one of the year. It's in May. The Tour is in July, and the Velta is in August, September.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

So like in horse racing, like the triple crown.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

And it's called the the Giro. It's not a gyro or anything like that. It's a it's the Giro.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Giro d'Italia.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:46

Yep. All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Learn something new. You've done the Spain. You've done Tour de France. Correct. Next. Bucket list. That's right. Giro. Okay. All right. I love it. Well, you look refreshed.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Well, thank you. I feel refreshed, but I'm glad to be home.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

It is good to see everybody here. And we're going to do a little bit of feedback from episode one and episode two of season two.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Absolutely. Yeah. During those episodes, we talked to a first-year principal, first year assistant principal, and learned from some of their experiences. Uh, based off those episodes, got a little feedback Michelle shared uh in particular, one of the challenges that a new leader might face when having those difficult conversations. We touched touched on that a little bit. She said really three things you could point to that uh that a new leader might make these mistakes. She said, one is avoiding that tough conversation altogether. Uh, two is addressing it too soon when you're still or maybe a little angry, feeling a little frustrated by the situation. And then last but not least, I thought this was interesting. Feeling like everything has to be resolved in one sitting. Sometimes it's gonna take a couple of conversations to get through whatever challenging scenario you're dealing with. And so thank you, Michelle, for sending that in. That's great advice.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Yeah, I really like that about sometimes you got to step away. Don't jump into that conversation right away. Take a deep breath, maybe collect your thoughts, and then be willing to have those follow-up conversations.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yep. Dave, you got some feedback.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

In looking at our on tap moments, um, we talked about, you know, dream vacations in episode one, and we talked about outside of the workplace pet peeves. So I have a couple of those. Um, longtime uh listener Nancy talked about one of her bucket list trips would be to take a train ride all the way across the United States, starting on the East Coast all the way to the West Coast, seeing the entire country. That'd be cool. Yeah, and then pet peeves um talk about people who fly through the yellow lights. Um, feel like, you know, hey, this means speed up and go. Yeah, hit the gas pedal, and those who wait on the railroad tracks um, you know, at a light. And we know that right over here on highway 26.

SPEAKER_04 3:55

When I was in like the fourth or fifth grade, my best friend, uh his dad worked for the railroads, and he came to our school and showed us a video about train accidents that probably we shouldn't have been watching as fourth and fifth graders. I'm scared to death of trains ever since. I will I'll stay way back from that thing. I don't want any part of that. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

You know, I think Nancy needs to move from longtime listener status to friend of the show status. Oh, yeah, I like it. I like it. We can do that. All right, so Nancy, you are officially our first friend of the show.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

VIP upgrade.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

All right. I also had a uh pet peeve, uh listener, Tommy, felt that those people that get into the 15 or less item line with 20 items, yeah, that just irks him to no end.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

And then act like it's not a big deal. Yeah, yeah. I I get that. Even when I'm like at 15, I'm I I almost feel guilty being there, just being that close to the limit. I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

I hate it when I'm at 16, yeah, but one of the items is two of the same thing. What do you do in that situation?

SPEAKER_04 5:01

That's 16. That's 16, Dr. G. I I kind of justify that counts as one. Uh me too. I feel bad about it, but I go there anyway because I I, you know, we're busy people.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

So if you bought 20 bags of the same potato chips, that's one item. That's one one item, man. That's some some fuzzy math going on here, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Listeners, let us know what you think. And then uh also one more bit of feedback. Dr. McClung, we we recorded her episode early in the summer. Yep. And soon thereafter, she left to another district for a I believe it was an opportunity closer home, closer to home, which we always uh think is smart.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Work-life balance.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

But uh a listener, Julie, shared this. I miss her so much. She was such a blessing to me last year. So, Dr. McClung, you are missed.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

She is, she is. I got a I got a text from her about a week or so ago with some very kind words, and she's uh definitely a colleague I really enjoyed working with here. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

All right, so today we are going to talk about instructional leadership. You guys ready?

SPEAKER_03 6:04

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

All right, welcome back to episode three. Today we have a very special guest with us, Mr. John Downey.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Doctor.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Dr. John Downey.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Welcome, yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Or as the neighbor kids call me, Mr. John. Mr. John.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

So, John, thank you for being here. I guess let us begin by having you give us a brief synopsis of your educational career, because I know you're now retired.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

I am. And probably the thing I'm most notable for is that I went to school with the Pope.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Oh, very cool. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

That has been 15 minutes of fame that I've been enjoying for a while. But um was he a troublemaker? No, no, he was the most delightful person you ever wanted to, even as a 13-year-old.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Which doesn't happen with 13-year-olds very often.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

No, you know that's just a delightful person.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

That's good to know that he wasn't a troublemaker.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

No. But um grew up in Chicago and um made my way to Texas. And I've had uh had a 40-year career in public education. Um, my background, I started as a special ed teacher, campus administrator, and then several different roles at the central office. Um during my time, I also taught some graduate classes and uh some master's level and doctoral level classes at UNT that COVID brought an end to. Yep. So um, but I enjoyed the the five or six years that I had teaching at the uh the collegiate level as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

And very focused on curriculum instruction. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

So you've had experience in the classroom, at the administrative level on campus, district level, you're well-rounded. What was probably your most enjoyable job during your career?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Well, hands down, the last probably six to seven years that I spent in GCISD um were by far the most rewarding. And you were doing what? During that time, I was executive director of learning. I think that's what we changed the title to. Yep. Uh it was curriculum instruction, but basically I had a team of folks that focused on curriculum instruction and teaching and learning. And um what made that notable was the amount of uh there was kind of a perfect storm at that time that you know. Yeah. We had a board that was incredibly supportive. We had a superintendent who was willing to take some risks, and we had people at Central Office who were willing to offer risks. And we always had people at the campus level who were willing to do things differently. But you really need those three things to come together. And so when Robin Ryan came on board and um he hired Rick Westfall, Rick became the it the position used to be like a gatekeeper. He opened the floodgates because he was open to any kind of idea. And so GCISD has many innovative programs because those three conditions existed. And um, and that by far was the most rewarding part of my 40 years.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

I remember when I came over from Dallas after spending 19 years in Dallas, um, and my first experience in the district, just not that Dallas is not innovative because they are, but just the amount of innovation and the amount of respect that was um present among all the employees here. Yeah, and I have a funny story about John. I don't know if he remembers, but I still remember the very first thing that he said to me whenever I met him. Who were you?

SPEAKER_00 10:10

I remember it as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Oh, what was that?

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Can we call you Gilly? Okay, well, I think we're going to from now on.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

That is going to stick.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

My reply was no. I prefer Gil or Gilbert. Okay. Dr. G, if you want to be formal. Sorry to be gilly.

SPEAKER_04 10:29

Because Gilly it is. That's sticking. That's sticking. Yeah, we actually had like two days of overlap. I was telling uh the guys right before you got here because I came in as a brand new assistant principal, I think. Um, and and you were leading some of the professional development there, probably as one of your one of your last tasks there. And and you talked about kind of creativity and innovation, and that's what I will remember from that is you know, I I'm a have an ELA background, I love a good analogy, and that's where uh we we did this um this activity that involved shampoo at a fitness club. And you know, how how would you do some creative problem solving? And it feels like on its surface that it has nothing to do with education, but the the takeaway from it was creative thinking and an approach to problem solving and having a what-if mentality instead of um, you know, you could probably sum that up better than I could, but I just remember that being such a cool activity.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

And I'm like, all right, yeah, we just this is gonna be a lot of fun. We took that back and did it a great bond that that year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:29

And and every time a problem arose, that was the question we asked. What if?

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Yep. And and I mean, I go way back with John. I I taught as kids back at Cross Timber. So I've known Dr. Downey for a long time and and respect his his uh his education and his care for people and and and the care for students. Um, and and that's what I've always seen over the years. So as we're talking about developing administrators, John, you know, one of the things we kind of talked before we started recording here is when you move from the classroom to an administrative, you know, oftentimes that next step is into, say, an assistant principal role. And, you know, it it kind of broadens your spectrum of seeing problems and seeing things. And I know there were times when I moved into the AP role, you kind of go, not everybody did their stuff like I did in the classroom. And I we've talked about that previously. So you start developing that instructional, you know, background. And but, you know, in the AP role, sometimes you get sucked into books, buses, and butts. So thinking of people moving into administration, you know, we we kind of talked about some strategies. And one of the things that we've talked about previous on that podcast is the idea of being pr present and visible, you know, being in the halls, being in the classroom. Can you talk to that at all?

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Well, an interesting uh experience I had when I became a young assistant principal. A seasoned veteran math teacher came up to me and said, Well, young man, I guess now that you've got the big office, you have all the answers.

SPEAKER_04 13:09

That's how it works, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:10

I can't tell you the amount of dread I felt at that particular time. Because I thought, no, yeah, I don't have really any answers. And here's somebody who I didn't even have a subject area specialty. So I could say, you know, go to the math teachers and say, well, this is the way I did it.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

I was a special ed teacher. And so what I realized early on was asking good questions is a whole lot better than having to have answers because you can't have all the answers. Right. And many times our our system puts you into that position because of your your title. You know, you think about the language that we use, whether it's principal, superintendent, executive director. Right. You know, what's the difference between an executive director and a director? Well, executive must be better. Right. And so we we read into that just like that teacher said. Well, you must have all the answers now. And too many times, I think, as an administrator, that's kind of what's expected. You now have that role, so you better have the answers because that's why we're paying you. And and so you fall into that trap of being the omniscient leader. Well, that's that's detrimental to any organization because you can't have all the answers. Right. So, you know, as as I think about the development of assist uh assistant principles, especially, and we worked tirelessly, but it's was such a paradox. We we wanted the assistant principals on more days than just admin retreat, yeah. To truly come together to talk and think and explore not just nuts and bolts, right? But truly to give them tools that they can utilize when they become a principal. And the paradox was well, no, you you can't take them off the campus. If if you take them off the campus, what if what if we have a fire drill? What if we have a fight? What if we have a parent who comes in? What if, what if, and so it was that that tug of war of how do we capture them? How do we create the time so that we can actually engage in the kind of conversations that quite frankly, Dr. Ryan, you um Michael, you've referenced the the admin retreats where we we focused on creativity and innovation and thought. Well, that was made possible by Robin Ryan. Yeah. Because he came to me and said, We're not doing nuts and bolts. He said, as a principal, I sat through those meetings and it nearly killed me. I said, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

So for our admin retreat, we're gonna do things differently, and you're gonna be in charge of them. Okay, what's your picture of success? Well, it's just gotta really be good. No pressure. Okay, yeah, okay. And so that gave me wide latitude. And so the choice then was we didn't focus on curriculum, we didn't even focus on instruction. We focused on thinking.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

And so uh, you know, I've I've lived by the adage that if you want to improve somebody's performance, improve their thinking. And that comes from David Rock, who has done a lot of research into coaching and and uh he wrote Quiet Leadership. And I think that's where I first read if you want to improve somebody's performance, improve their thinking. Too often what when we try to improve a performance, whether it's of a kid or a teacher or an assistant principal to become a principal, we well, we give them more things to do. Okay, well, you do this, do this, do this, do this. And it's all those doing things rather than actually taking the time to develop thought. And and so but that's that's a hard sell.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah. Yeah. I I remember Tony Tolkien and I, and John, you know, Tony, we'd come back, or I'd come back from you know the meetings, and man, your brain's going 100 miles an hour. And then little Michael stole cookies from the cafeteria. You gotta jump into that, and you don't, yeah. So it is that it is that that doing and thinking paradigm for sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

And I remember sitting in on those meetings thinking, you know, my assistant principal needs to be here in this, they need to be here. Yeah, and so and they're hungry for this type of uh instruction, this type of learning.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's why the after that first year, my non-negotiable was APs have to be involved in this, even if it's just those two days, yeah. APs have to be and coaches have to be involved in it. And I had to argue and and battle for that because it was like, well, no, they really don't belong with principals. Really? They belong where good thought is happening, and they can take part in that, and especially assistant principals, if they're gonna if we're grooming them to become our instructional leaders, they've got to be exposed to thinking. Yeah, not just as you said, books, butts, and buses. Yeah, you know, and we all experience that. I experienced that as an AP, but I also had the opportunity to in one of my roles as AP at a middle school level, where the principal basically said, We have a dean of students, you get to be principal. And that was an invaluable experience because I learned how to become an instructional leader. And after that, I took a role as a high school assistant principal and then just regressed right back to parking lot, yeah, cafeteria duty, mashed potatoes flying, and you know, and finally said, I'll give three years, but after that, yeah, you know, play me or trade me because that's all I'm going to invest into this because I want to do something different and and more.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

So, John, we devoted an entire episode to giving effective feedback, and that overlaps with instructional leadership because as an instructional leader, you have to be able to provide that feedback that people can receive and act upon. And we talked about how it's supposed to be cons specific, consistent, timely. What would you add in terms of feedback to be uh an effective instructional leader?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Well, we we default often to platitudes like that was awesome. You know, you're a rock star. That was great. Okay. We all love to be told we're awesome. After I lead a session and I'm still working remotely leading uh coaching training. And in fact, we talked about it yesterday in our in our session about feedback. And um I told several of the participants, you're awesome. That was awesome. The professional development you led was awesome. This was great. And then I gave them the the other side. It was obvious, Dave, that when you designed this, you considered everybody who was going to be there, what values, motives, and needs they brought to the to the learning, and you designed the work around that. Now, how do the two feel?

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Well, the first one feels great because we all love to be told we're awesome. But that that fades pretty quickly. Why? Why am I off awesome?

SPEAKER_03 20:59

What did I do? What did I do?

SPEAKER_00 21:02

And especially our highest performing teachers need more. They know they're awesome. Yeah, yeah. They need more than us saying, You're just a rock star, you're just great. They're the ones, I believe, who need coaching the most because they their thought, their thinking has to be challenged and pushed to the next level. And so um, you know, when I think about feedback, again, I think a lot of it has to do with reflecting back to the person and asking questions that cause people to think. Even first year teachers. There's a reason a district hires a first year teacher. There's gotta be something there. But too many times with young teachers, we default to well, they don't know anything, so we're just gonna we're gonna hand them the lesson plans, we're gonna give them and we think we're helping. But in fact, we're hindering them. Instead of again having a balance of let me help you along and get your get your feet under you. But now let's hear what kind of great ideas you have. What thoughts have you had about that?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Just that simple question. What thoughts have you had? It's a positive presupposition that you've actually had some thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

And I think that's especially true, maybe in recent years, and I don't know if it's a product of some improving uh academic programs or or what, but you know, it I remember as a principal, some of the some of the most creative instruction I saw that I was learning from as a at the time, probably 15-year educator, was from a first or second year teacher. I'm like, that's that's brilliant. You know, walking into a class of someone that's been doing this for six weeks is like, I wish I had done that for the last 15 years.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

Well, and I think we've talked about it in kind of some of the hiring pieces is when you're putting a staff together, it's nice to have some of that that you know, veteran plus some of the new ideas. And and, you know, I think that is a great um staff when you can kind of combine those two together.

SPEAKER_04 23:13

I think I think when you talk instruction, one of the most powerful, I'll say potentially powerful and also most misunderstood agents of change in schools right now is the professional learning community, the PLC. Um, I think if you were to go to a hundred different schools and use the phrase PLC, you'd see a hundred different examples of what that is, even though there is, you know, a true PLC in its origins. So what what do you think it is? Um I guess that makes a PLC powerful, and and where do you think that misunderstanding comes from?

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Whoa, how much time do you have? You know, PLCs, um, and and I studied with the originators of PLC. DeFors, yeah, yeah, and and uh Shirley Hoard and and and others. PLCs became something we do because we set aside a time when we do PLC and we focus on those four questions, which which are fine because that's you know, that's the uh I think DeFor did an incredible amount of good in in helping people focus on the power of plcs. But if we don't go past that, if we don't go further than that, then we're selling them short. Okay, we've we've done this. Well, anytime somebody tells me, well, we've done that. Well, we we did cooperative learning three years ago. Really? You did it and it's done. So you checked out your list. Mission accomplished, mission accomplished, now we're on something else. And so to me, PLCs is a way of being. And until we take that mindset, it's just like uh coaching. Coaching is a mindset. There's skills involved, sure, but it's a mindset. And the mindset is I believe that the answer lies within you. And my job is to help you bring that out rather than me telling you what you ought to do, because I'm in a position that's higher than you, therefore I should know more than you.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Um, or I have more experience in the same position, therefore I should tell you. So with PLCs, I've worked with so many different districts where the exact same reaction rolling of eyes, waste of time, but we have to do it. Well, it's a powerful, powerful tool that if, again, if you allow the people who are part of that PLC to have some ownership as to what they do, given certain expectations. Here are the non-negotiables about that time. But I, as the administrator, I'm not going to dictate. I'm not going to be there to make sure you do it, because quite often that's what I would hear. Well, our system principle comes to make sure that we do it. Okay, well, how meaningful is that? Yeah. You know, that's kind of like a a chain gang, you know, working and making you know guards making sure you're you're busting enough rock or picking up enough trash. So I think uh I think PLCs can be a very powerful tool, but it but it comes back to to me is is a common vision. And that's that's one of the critical attributes of a of a PLC, is what is a common vision? And too often I think that's um it's developed, it's put on paper, it's plastered on a website, but is is it part of the culture of the organization, whether it's a school district, a school, a department, a PLC. And and I think when you think about systems within a school, we often default to operational systems, especially if I'm an assistant principal, because that's all I'm about.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

I'm about the operational systems. Well, to be a true learning organization, you really have to focus on directional system and recruitment and induction system. And what is it that we stand for? What is it that we're about? And how do we continue to create that culture and develop that on a day-to-day basis? Not just when you go out to recruit, not just when you hire and induct and onboard, but how do you, and it's not just the new people, how do you continue to focus on where we're going? And then how do you hold every every decision you make up to that standard? This is what we're about at Grayfine High School. This is what we're about. Yeah. How does what you want match that?

SPEAKER_03 27:47

And everything that you do ties back to what we're about.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Ties back to that. So whether it's a school or whether it's a PLC, but too often in PLCs, we've made them something to do.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

So make sure you turn in your meeting notes. Okay. I didn't have too many bosses asking me to turn in meeting notes because I was taught as a uh I was treated as a professional. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

So as soon as we start doing those kinds of things to operationalize something that is really more cultural, then I think it it is counterintuitive and counterproductive for teachers. So I think PLC's is a great structure, but terribly misunderstood and terribly ineffectively practiced.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

So, John, one of the ways that you can tell a good leader from a great leader is the number of leaders that that person develops and the number of principals, the number of superintendents, kind of like in football that's a Nick Saban coaching tree.

SPEAKER_04 28:48

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yes, yes. So building capacity in others. And and it kind of goes a little bit with the PLC question, which by the way, Michael, that was another cute question that uh you got. So congratulations. So thanks, Gilly. So I'll talk about uh how you can best build uh capacity in others as a principal.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

I'll go back to what I said earlier. If you want to improve somebody's performance, improve their thinking, the better thinker they are. Peter Drucker coined the term knowledge worker, you know, that we at our industrial age, we, you know, we were governed by scientific management. And uh, you know, you have a bunch of mediocre people, but as long as you've got good managers and you've got rules and regulations and and procedures in place, you'll be okay. Well, we're not we're not working on the assembly line anymore. We're we're actually knowledge workers. And so uh that means people have got to have the time to think and explore. And so I would agree with you when none of the people who I worked with who are now in and they've gone on, unfortunately, they've most of them have gone on to someplace else, they've taken on incredible roles. Why? Because I taught them certain skills, no, I didn't have enough skills to teach people. When I retired, and and so I'm announcing it to the entire world because this is an international podcast, right? That's right. That's right. When I re at my reception, uh I I confessed that in my 17 years in charge of curriculum instruction, the one fact nobody knew was I had never written a curriculum document. Some people kind of went, hmm. Others just shook their head. The ones who shook their heads realized my job wasn't to write curriculum. Quite frankly, I think writing curriculum is boring. It is. Yeah, I think it is one of the most boring things on the face. Now, there are people who love writing curriculum.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

And we're thankful for those people.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

We are, and I would make sure I hired those people, but I also made sure I hired people who were the smartest people in the room. So when I sat in my cabinet meetings, my director's meetings, I felt good when I looked around the table and realized she's smarter, she's smarter, she's smarter, he's smarter, she's smarter. They're all smarter than me. Yeah. And that's okay because that's what I want. I want people who are willing to think. Now, my job then becomes how do I create the conditions in which they get to use that muscle.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

And and I think that's what that's what developing leaders is about. You number one, you bring people in because they're smart. And you're not intimidated by and smart people are intimidating. I remember being called by Becky Lamb when she was in HR saying, Hey, I got this guy I want you to talk to. Okay. But he's an attorney. I thought, oh man, this is the profession that I've been uh threatened with my entire career. Someone's gonna call their attorney on me. Okay, uh, tell me why I'm gonna talk to this attorney. Well, because you just have to talk to him. I said, fine, send him on down, sends them down, and in five minutes, I could tell I wanted to hire him. I didn't have any idea where or what, but I realized this guy is brilliant. And if he is choosing education over a a career in law, and he's this great of a thinker, he can learn the other stuff. Yeah, and uh, you'll probably want to edit this out, but do you know who that was? Yes, I do. Okay, yeah. You want me to say his name? You can edit it out. It was Matthew White.

SPEAKER_03 33:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Oh, okay. Who now is practicing as an attorney, yeah. But he also was an incredible educator while he was in GCISD. Yeah. And and so it's it's those kind of people that I would be most attracted to because I believed the smarter you are, the the more open you are to thinking and to innovating, that makes it exciting. You you you know, you asked about what was the best part of my career, and that was those years in GCIST, we actually got to to innovate. Yeah, I had offers from districts all around, and and I turned them all down. Number one, because of the culture that existed, and I think that's another part of all this that's really important as far as an instructional leader goes, is the development of culture. Peter Drucker also says culture eats strategy for breakfast. So you can be a great strategist, but if you have a faulty culture, it's just not going to work. And so um, I think part of also in developing other leaders is you develop a culture in which people want to be part of because you know darn well they'll have other options. Yeah. Because of how good they are.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

Yeah. And that's what you want ultimately. I mean, you know, we've talked about it on here. I mean, you know, I think when I get the opportunity to retire, I mean, just the legacy. I mean, people I've had the opportunity, you know, Michael and his role and Tina Garrett and Tiffany Cunningham and Mandy Alexander, and you know, the people that you know, they're way smarter than I was, John. I mean, and I'm not even close, but I hope we created a culture when we were all together at Grapevine that allowed them to do their jobs and to grow and to get better. And, you know, that that's probably one of the things I'm most proud of for sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Yeah. As a leader, if you are afraid to hire or if you are intimidated to hire people smarter than yourself, you're never going to develop yourself.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

No, not at all. Not at all. So, so kind of going back to that that culture piece, um, you know, one of the things that we've talked about before is is clearly, because I I think you go back to, hey, this is what we're about. And these are the expectations. So talk about how, you know, as an assistant principal or principal, that, you know, I I think me personally, I think one of the the biggest pieces is that that collaboration and that that teamwork to, you know, it it's not my school. I'm not walking in there and saying, hey, this is what we're about. I think one of the keys is to get buy-in from everybody to setting those expectations of what we're about at at Grapevine High School. So as an assistant principal or principal, what are those things from a instruction standpoint that you can kind of help, you know, set those expectations?

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Well, I I think part of it is the conversation around where's the focus going to be? We talk about instruction, but if you think about instruction, where's the focus? But it's on the teacher. Yeah. Because who's doing the instructing? Yeah. The teacher.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

But what are the kids doing?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

What are the kids doing? And and what's the value of the work that we're giving kids? And so I think part of it is the conversation around that, because I don't think you'll find too many teachers saying, no, it should be just about me and what I'm doing. No, it should be what is it that the kids get to do? And unfortunately, principals, assistant principals, teachers, they're hamstrung by other systems that say, no, this is what's important. And so just a focus and an over-reliance on standardized test scores have truly kind of shrunk that whole vision of what we should be doing. And it also lends itself to, well, there's easier ways to do that if this is the end result that we want. So do I need to have the smartest, brightest people? If I can buy a program and put a kid on a computer and get know that I will get good test scores, everyone's happy. So what I really worry about now is that even though we've evolved out of the scientific management mindset into an instructional leader, transformational leader mindset, some external factors are really kind of pushing us back the other way. And we're regressing. So I really think a lot of conversation has to happen around those two things. You know, what's what are we putting in front of kids? Yeah, but if we don't do this, then our test scores, test scores might fall. Well, you know, there's a bigger problem there then. You know, as a system, is that what we're about? Is are we focusing on test scores? And if we are, then we're really limiting the opportunities that kids are going to have because focusing on test scores uh narrows the curriculum and and utilizes a measurement that is faulty at best and is criminal at worst.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:30

You you mentioned the word evolve, and and I I want to ask you about instructional leadership in general and how that may have evolved throughout the time of your career. And thinking back, yeah, I think you said 30 years in education. 40. 40. 40 years as well. Would a successful instructional leader from now be successful back then, and vice versa? Would an instruction a successful instructional leader from then be successful now? And or are there different skill sets or or different trends that have emerged over that time that have required an evolution in that role?

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Well, I think uh back into the 70s when I began and into the 80s, I think uh what was valued was management skills. Those who were uh who were pushed forward were those who were able to manage the best. And and so would somebody who's an instructional leader now, I think people would look at them a little strangely. Yeah. If if they you know, if their focus was not about management was but was about development. And what are you doing in my classroom? Right. Right. Yeah. What do you mean, you know, uh what data am I utilizing to make these decisions about about kids? And so uh I think you would have uh you'd have some pushback. I think there was a need for standards. So prior to the 80s when standards became a thing, uh teachers had much more latitude in in what they even what they taught, not just how they taught, but what they taught. And I think standardizing that was not a bad thing, but even that went awry. Uh, because the standards really are are behavioral in nature, they're they're not truly performance standards. And so um that's a whole other conversation. But I think um I think that was necessary, but like in anything else in education, if we take a good thing and we'll push it on down the road as far as we can until it's no longer a good thing and it's an awful thing. And I think that that's what happened when in reaction to a nation at risk, yeah, and then subsequently uh no child left behind, well, no child left behind, whether it was knowingly or unknowingly, was going to doom public education because it set up a system. Now, the thought behind it that no child should be left behind, can't argue with that. No, you can't. But then when you put in a system of measurement that is guaranteed to fail, that is one in which you cannot win. If you use a standard standardized test and rank order kids, every kid cannot pass it.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

If I say we're gonna rank order us along height, and the I lose the bar is the bar is five foot eleven. Yeah. Okay, now obviously there's not much you can do about height, and there is something you can do about learning. But as long as you have a rank order, someone has got to be at the tail end of the rank order. Yeah, that's just the way it works. And to for us to tell teachers, every one of your kids can pass that test, it's a lie. Now, maybe every one of your kids can pass the test because they come from the right background and have had the right experiences, but globally, everyone cannot pass that test. And we're gonna punish you if in 12 years, 14 years after they pass that law, if all of your kids are not performing up to standard. Okay, well, it was doomed. Yeah, but as educators, we bought it if we just worked harder. If I just work harder, every one of yes, every one of the kids in your classroom might pass that test. But every kid in Texas, no, because guess what? We're gonna line them all up because that's what standardized tests do. They compare one kid to another, and we can draw some conclusions based on that, and we can look at groups and realize how groups are performing. Not that we don't already know what groups are going to be at the tail end. Yeah, yeah. But we know that the highest predictor of success on standardized tests is socioeconomics. So who's always going to be at the tail end? Yep. Always. It's not because kids from poverty aren't smart, it's not because they can't learn. Because they don't have great teachers. Exactly right. You know, you look at some of the classrooms and some of the schools that I've visited, in fact, a school that I said I would send my own kids to, uh, doesn't have the highest scores. But I know they have some of the most dedicated creative teachers that I've ever seen. And that's what I would want for my kids. And so um so you have a system that is truly unwinnable. And so we're seeing the state take over this district and this district and this district. And you come to the conclusion well, that's Fort Worth. Right. We know they're awful.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Yeah, and and coming from Dallas, you know, Dallas has the same reputation, but in my 19 years there, some of the greatest teachers I ever saw are employed by Dallas, by Fort Worth.

SPEAKER_04 44:13

And that's where I think you see, you know, I I have seen A-rated campuses. Um and and not speaking outside of our district, I've seen A-rated campuses at places where the instruction in my mind was was not such that I'm I'm dying to have my kid in that class. And then I've seen campuses that according to a a state report card, you know, you would think I don't want my child there. And I and I you see some really innovative, creative instruction that that is is pushing and challenging kids, you know. And I think to your point, the the grade that districts and campuses receive based on some of these metrics at the end of the year is not always reflective of what's happening in that room and where the most powerful instruction is taking place.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Absolutely. And is there anybody sitting around this table who can explain that system?

SPEAKER_02 45:08

No.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Michael? Wait a second. We've got doctorates sitting here. Certainly we should understand that. Right, yeah. But it is so convoluted intentionally. But we reduce all that to A through F. Well, does the community understand A through F? Right. Of course they do. A is great, F is failing. If you're in A school, must have a great principal, must have great teachers. If you're an F school or a D school, don't want my kid going there. And it's hard to explain to somebody that's kind of where I would want my kid to go because I know the instruction they're getting, the work that they get to do is uh superior in at times to some A-rated schools because guess what? Despite what goes on there, those kids are going to be successful. Yeah. And that's where that system uh fails us. And it fails kids. And that's the that's the horrible part about it. It fails kids because the kids who are attending those A-rated schools could very well be cheated out of achieving a potential that could be limitless.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

So John, um if you had a an assistant principal who next school year is going to be a principal, let's say even a current principal, if you could share one or two things for them to to be able to do to do to improve their instructional leadership, what would that one or two things be?

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Ask good questions, number one. Ask many questions. Um read. And and read outside of education because there's great educational publications, but again, a lot of it has to do with okay, here's what you do if you do this, here's you know, it un unfortunately I think you have to look outside of education. And I realized I had to go to the business section and find out what innovative companies were doing because if they didn't innovate, they would go out of business. And for a long time, we said we'll never go out of business. Public education will be around forever. Yeah, yeah, maybe not so. And so when you think about the kind of choice that parents have now throughout this country, you've got to be able to offer something that they want that they can't get somewhere else. And so I would say read, read deeply, read widely. And when I say that, I know a lot of people roll their eyes and say, okay, when when in the world am I going to have time to read anything? Well, email me and I'll give you the cliff notes versions of my books.

SPEAKER_04 48:05

And he will, and I appreciate that. I may have taken him up on that.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

You know, all the notes that I took as I as I read things, do and surround yourself and reach out. Don't don't learn how to do something better. Put yourself in situations in which you have got to develop your thinking because someone might be able to create a master schedule better, and that's a great skill. But if I can find somebody who knows how to do that and loves how to do that, then I can empower them to do that very thing. So I I think those are two of those the things that I would say, and and again, I'll go back to culture. You know, strategy exists on paper. Culture exists in people. And so it's it's the focus on people and the development of people, and not just the development of people who are struggling. We oftentimes, just like in the classroom, our highest achieving kids, well, they'll be fine. Our highest achieving teachers, sometimes we ignore them as well because we're spending so much time on those who are struggling, but don't ignore those teachers who are your highest performers. Put them in situations where their expertise and experience can benefit others as well. Good.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

If you could go back in time and think about you're leaving the special ed classroom, you're stepping into assistant principal shoes or leadership, a leadership role for the first time in education, what advice now would you give your young self back then?

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Well, I was told that if I ever wanted to get into administration, I had to number one, shave my beard, number two, go back into the regular ed classroom. And both of those suggestions offended me. And I did neither one. I thought if if if who I am and the leader that I can be is not enough for somebody, I'm not I'm not playing that game. And luckily it worked out for me. I'd say the exact same thing that I realized early on. Ask questions. Asking questions is a whole lot easier than trying to come up with answers. Because you more more often than not, you're not gonna have the right answer because you can't. You can't do it. Just because you have the title doesn't mean you've been endowed magically with all the answers. Right. Right. And so ask questions, turn it around on on folks and say, so what thoughts do you have on that? How would you do that? And what that does is it brings people in and and it it tells them your ideas are worth listening to. And now very subtly I'm creating a learning community because we're it's not just one way. I value your opinion while I'm holding up these standards. And I think that's the other part. What is it that we're about and be crystal clear on this is what we're about. And any decision we make, any money we spend will have to support this. If it doesn't, then you already have your answer before you come to me. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 51:16

Well, we we've talked throughout today about you know the importance of learning from others and um empowering others and all of these things. And I think I can speak for everyone at the table where all of us have have learned from you and and feel more empowered in our roles based off some of the learning that we have gotten from you. So just want to thank you for being here with us today and and sharing your insights. Well, thank you for inviting me. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

And John, our our next segment is our on tap segment, which um we'd love for you to stay if you can. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

This is where we have a little bit of fun and and kind of get off the uh education topic. And and you know, we always talk about you have to play as hard as you work. Um, and and so we've asked different questions uh, you know, throughout the throughout the our podcast. And today, because we know, you know, you're retired, you do some, you know, consulting and and things on the side, but you've kind of taken a right turn on what you had done in your education field. And so our question today, you know, for for Gilbert and for Michael and myself, and and if you have something different you want to add, is you know, what is kind of your ideal hobby or retirement, maybe job that you want to do that's opposite of your professional career? So you and your wife do stained glass. So tell us a little bit about that and what got you in there.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Well, it was not something that I ever dreamt I would ever do. Never thought the word artist would be associated with my name in any way, shape, or form, even though I was director of fine arts for the district. Just want you to know that. Um but my wife had an interest. She took a class, she bought some equipment, set up in the garage, and then we quickly realized well, that's not gonna work because you're gonna die out here. And so when um kids left, we renovated one of the bedrooms and made it a sewing slash stained glass and uh room. And so we've since then we've added on twice to our in-home studio. Uh, and she taught me, and so I learned and realized, well, this is kind of fun. And when um when I retired, we formed uh an LLC and um we used to teach, and we don't do that much anymore. Once COVID hit, we obviously stopped and uh and then we hadn't gotten back into it because really we we enjoy spending our time creating. And I think that that's uh is such so different than when you think about being a knowledge worker and and my last job being a central office, as you watch kids walk across the stage, you say to yourself, Well, I hope I hope I had something to do with that. But there's no there's no direct line between what I do every day and the success of those kids. You just hope that there's a meandering line there somewhere where decisions you made and money you spent and re people you put in place really had an impact on kids. This is something that you can go look, look what I created. I made that. Yeah, I made that. And um, and it really has supported the whole idea of sometimes we've got to put kids in the situations where they have to learn something. Not because I want to teach you, but because you have to learn it. Yeah, and I've been in that situation every single day. Well, I don't know how to do this. Well, guess what? Find somebody who has that expertise, go online and get a YouTube video and learn how to do it. And so it really for me has kind of connected back to education because instead of always telling kids this is what you have to do, give them the kind of work that forces them to have to seek out instruction, yeah, that has to seek out knowledge and develop skills in order to do this. And so that's what we've been doing for um well, really for about 20 years now, but as a business for about eight. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

So if someone was to have an interest in some of your pieces, is there a website? Where would they go?

SPEAKER_00 55:35

To Rin Downey. So my wife's maiden name is Rindoni. So I just took the first three letters. Her name, Ryndowney.com. And so they're um, but really it's on Facebook where uh, you know, you can go to our Facebook page, and um there are times where we're very busy with making things for other people. Channel A did a uh thing on us, um, an early morning thing with Sean Giggy one time, and um, and I told him, you know, our business model is not one that you want to follow. There are very few years in which we actually turn a profit, and most of the time we are in the red. And so um, because we give a lot away, we donate a lot, and you know, we're our our vision, our mission really is to get the things that we make in the hands of other people and hopefully make enough money so that we can continue this habit.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

I got one hanging up in my house, so absolutely it's kind of like this podcast, you know. We don't really make any money out of it. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 56:43

So despite being international and global, it's you know yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:47

So, Gilbert, you are retired, and and you know, we've talked that you work at the with the city part-time and uh at the rec center. But you know, if you you looked and said, All right, what is something completely opposite of what I did in my career? What's on your bucket list?

SPEAKER_01 57:03

You know, the first thing that popped into my mind was Jessica Chastain's personal assistant. You know, yeah. But then I thought, well, maybe think of something more realistic, you know, something not impossible. Uh and you know, as you guys know, I'm a cyclist. Yes. Um, and so I love watching uh professional cycling races, the Tour de France, the Giro d'Italia, the Vuelta, which is in Spain. Uh, and one of the jobs in that field that has always intrigued me is is the job of a seigneur. Signeur. Yeah, okay. Not a seigneur. You're gonna have to enlighten us there, not a seigneur, but a seigneur. And they basically provide three things uh to the cyclists: logistics and support. So they prepare feed bags, race bottles. They're out there handing them out through the riders as they go through different checkpoints. Uh, nutrition and hydration, they prepare specialized foods, drinks, so they can uh maintain their high level of performance. Uh, and also logistical support. They they often manage transportation to and from the airports, you know, just kind of like an Uber driver sometimes. So different levels of support.

SPEAKER_03 58:18

So, how many like on a team? Because this is this is new to me. I've never seen this word before, Gilbert. So I'm learning here, Dr. Downey. I'm asking questions. Um, I mean, on a team, how many are there?

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Now, you know, this is a question that I was not prepared for, so I'm gonna take an educated guess. On a typical tour de France, Vuelta, you're gonna have about nine riders. Okay. Okay. And so on a typical race course, which could be 120, 150 kilometers long, there's different places throughout that uh course that the riders are gonna need nourishment. So I'm thinking probably anywhere from 15 to 20. Okay. I would say that would be my educated guess. Um, one of the other things that they provide, which this I would not do, I'm sorry, but I draw the line, is some of the seigneurs actually offer massages to the cyclists. Because you can imagine after a long day's drive, they're gonna be pretty sore. So you're out of the running then, Dr. D.

SPEAKER_04 59:24

If you're not willing to go the extra mile there, I think you're out.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Well, I guess it's Jessica Chester. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

So, Crow, what do you got? What would be something that you're like, man, this would be something completely different than what I do now?

SPEAKER_04 59:38

I'll tell you my dream job really, and I, you know, it's I don't know that it's particularly realistic, but my dream job in retirement, I love movies. I love all movies. I love good movies, I love bad movies, I love every genre. Um, I I would want to be like modern day Siskel and Ebert or you know, connected to Rotten Tomatoes or something. I would I would love to go see every movie that comes out for the rest of my life once I retire and write about them and and give reviews on them and talk about you know what I appreciated or you know, why maybe where where it could have been improved. I love to write. I love movies, and that's kind of a combination of both things. But I know that a lot of movie reviewers they get the you know, they get it sent to them once upon a time, DVD in the mail now probably receive it digitally somehow. I don't want that. I want to be in the theater with the popcorn. Probably wouldn't last very long because I'm sure that's not not super healthy. Yeah, I want to be in there. That I I love that experience, and I love uh sharing that experience with other people. So I think that would be a dream job.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Okay. I was thinking you were going to say something like executive producer of The Bachelor or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:43

Yeah, I mean that's that goes without saying, but you know, it's and not so much producer like, but but I I think about the the Jesse Palmer or the Chris Harrison who's hosting the show. Okay. I want to say, Gilbert, ladies, this is the final rose of the night. I've been practicing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:00

All right, Dave. So, gentlemen, you know, um when I left Grapevine High School, you know, we talked about I gotta find a hobby, something to, you know, kind of keep my interest. And, you know, so I I I thought about, you know, I'm gonna start figuring out how to pickle products, you know, cucumbers, things like that. Well, that didn't really last. That's pretty random too, there. You know, I don't know. It was it was kind of Tilly and I talked about that. And I got into this probably not a great vice, but I got into bourbon. Um, and you know, started very simple, just enjoyed it, and it became a hobby. Um, and so different bottles collecting, understanding the different distilleries, the different mash bills, what causes one to taste one way, what causes one to taste another way, and and have kind of gone down that rabbit trail. And and as you guys know, a couple weeks ago I got an awesome trip up to Louisville with some friends. And so I I I think something along those lines, you know, maybe a high-end bartender or leading, you know, the gentleman who led our um distillery tour, he was from Boston and and he and his wife moved down there and he had an interest and is a tour guide at Buffalo Trace Distillery. Um, and I I don't know, it's you know, I think maybe some of the history in me, that history of bourbon and whiskeys and you know, our are you know the eight, 1700, 1800s, it it's fascinating to me and why Kentucky and why, you know, certain certain locations. So that that would be something that would be intriguing to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:36

I'm gonna argue that that Dave might have had this hobby before he left the principalship. And I and I'll tell a quick story as to how I know that. And you know, COVID, or excuse me, Dave left uh his final year of the principalship was during COVID. So everyone wanted to give him a farewell, but it's but it's at a at a heightened time where we we thought, you know, that that's not the safest thing. So they did like this parade of cars past his house, very well organized. And I remember thinking to myself, Dave likes a little bourbon. I'm gonna give him, I'm gonna get Dave a farewell gift, a little bottle of bourbon, put it in a bag. It'll be you know appropriate. Um, and so I'm driving off school property. Off school was off school property, yes. Um, you know, appropriate settings and all that. But I'm driving and I'm about, you know, 15th in line, and every car in front of me is handing Dave a bourbon-sized gift out the window. That was just my start of this hobby, sir. Well, you they we all had some insight, I think, to how we could help you get started going with this hobby. So I'm glad that that happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

All right. So, listeners, we want to hear from you. What is that one job, totally opposite of what you're doing now, that you would want? Uh, share with us on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter X.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:52

Or you can email us at info at edleadershipontap.com. That's info at edleadershipontap.com.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:00

Or you can text us through the app. We would love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

All right. Once again, thanks, John. And until next time, keep leading.