SPEAKER_03 0:24

All right, welcome to Ed Leadership on Tap. This is episode 16. Gentlemen, how was your day today?

SPEAKER_02 0:30

It was great. It was great. Long one, but a good one.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

All right. So last week we talked, or two weeks ago, we talked about uh effective hiring practices, and I know we got some feedback on that.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

We did, our longtime listener. Nancy talked about when you are seeking jobs and you're looking for um, you know, the right references, make sure that you are putting down the right phone numbers, double check their emails so you know references get through. And probably the most important piece of advice, though, is make sure that you talk to that reference and make sure they're okay with being a reference for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Yeah, probably don't want that to be a surprise in the process.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Yeah. I mean, sometimes, you know, I I've made those phone calls and people are shocked that they were listed as a reference. And then finally, you know, really listen as you are talking to that reference about, you know, are there some things you're hearing that they're not necessarily saying out loud?

SPEAKER_03 1:26

I did notice how some of our listeners have begun uh emphasizing the fact that hiring season is here. So that's great. We we're glad that we can serve as a resource.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

We're we're in full swing, sir. Full time to get going there. We also had an on-tap segment uh related to all-time favorite classic video games, and we got a little bit of feedback there as well. Um, Mike gave us Street Fighter 2, Mega Man, and several others, but I was like, I remember that one. Street Fighter 2. I don't Mega Man, I'm I know the name, but I can't think of the video game. Yeah, Street Fighter 2 at the arcade was a fun one. Um, one that one that I enjoyed playing. We also got from Scott Super Contra. Y'all might remember that. And then I can't believe I didn't include this Mike Tyson's punch out.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Oh, Class Joe, remember that?

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Yeah, Soda Papinski, King Hippo. That was a good one. That was a good one. It took me forever to figure out you had to punch King Hippo and his little band-aid on his belly button. You know, but once you get that, you're good to go.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

And we want to give a shout-out that, you know, from our episode uh a couple episodes ago when we had Dr. Mike Finnegan on, um, he uh shared the podcast with some of his foreign former students. And and one in particular want to give a shout out to Katie uh Dayhoff, I believe is how you say it, and her crew at Junction City High School. She mentioned such a great podcast. I shared it with our crew, and now I'm hooked on the whole show. So, Katie, we appreciate you listening and keep listening.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Yes, we love new listeners and spread the word. All right, are you guys ready to get started? Let's go. All right, so today we're gonna do an in the chair segment. Previously we have done two of those. We did the superintendent with Dr. Schnautz.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Then we did the principal with uh Dr. Cody Kunts.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Yep. Marcus High School Principal owned.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

All right, and so today we're moving on right down the line. We are doing the assistant principal in the chair segment.

SPEAKER_04 3:27

Yes, and we are blessed to have a very special guest here with us today, uh, Miss Mary Smith, who is the academic associate principal at the Grapevine High School. So welcome to the show, Mary.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Thank you. Rah-rah.

SPEAKER_04 3:45

She's already got it down. She's got it down. So, you know, Mary, really, this in the chair is, you know, to give our listeners just kind of a glimpse into your day-to-day and kind of what got you into the chair of, you know, that assistant associate principal. Um, so as we kind of are kicking off, can you just kind of give us a quick brief summary of what got you here? Your background, what led you from, you know, college into the seat you're sitting in right now?

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah, so not a traditional uh pathway for me. I graduated pre-med. Okay. So I'm a biology major with a little chemistry minor. So um didn't know what I wanted to do when I graduated because I was kind of over school and had a principal reach out and say, You're so overqualified to come teach school. And I was like, Oh, okay. So um I taught the first year um at a small school on the Texas-Louisiana border, and I taught six different grades.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

It's very small, and um loved every second of it, but knew immediately what grade I was gonna focus in on. And I loved my high school students and I loved chemistry.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

So, what were the lowest grades you taught during the sixth grade. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah, sixth through tenth. Math and science.

SPEAKER_04 5:02

How big was the school?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

It was very small. So all of the sixth graders would fit in one classroom. So I taught the whole grade at one time. Yeah, and so um I was also the golf coach, the chair coach, the senior sponsor.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

Did you drive the bus? I did not drive the bus.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

I've never gotten the CDL, even though I've been asked. Um, but it was quite um a roller coaster of you know, life. And so I knew what I wanted to do, and I got my cert, I went back and did post backlette and got my certification in chemistry. And I went to mesquite. So mesquite ISD to from Bloomberg was very eye-opening.

SPEAKER_05 5:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Um, and so I actually got a curriculum.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

That's important.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

A curriculum that you didn't write.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

The curriculum I didn't write.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Were you were you a skeeter or which high school were you?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

I was a petite pirate.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah. And so um learned um quickly that this was a big passion of mine, and I enjoyed working with the teenagers. And so I've done it ever since. So I was in the classroom for 15 years. Um, I was not excited to exit the classroom, to be honest. I love teaching. Um, the reason I did is because I got kind of pushed into the instructional coaching world. And then once I got there, I wanted to make more moves for teachers and students. So I thought, hey, why not go into the administration world? So I could do that. So that's kind of how I ended up. So I've been 21 years in education and almost all of it has been high school.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

So who who was it that saw something in you that felt that uh a role in helping to develop teachers would be right for you?

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Well, it's funny. So um my husband is a football coach. So I wish I could say I had roots in the education world. That doesn't happen. But that doesn't go with his career. And so um I will say I find it as a positive that I worked in so many districts in Texas because I didn't truly know this about myself, but I am observant about systems and organization and what works and what doesn't work. So I took notes that I didn't realize I took, you know, mental notes. And so um that's really helped me along the lines. But when I was in college station, um so when I was in college station, I had a principal who saw a lot in me and pushed me to be a teacher leader of a cohort when T tests rolled out.

SPEAKER_05 7:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

I didn't even know what I was doing. Um he made me study it all summer, and then I had a cross-curricular team of teachers that I worked with to understand T tests because that three F uh proficient is not great for a teacher who was used to a four, you know.

SPEAKER_05 7:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

So um I learned to start coaching there and they kind of kept pushing me. And the assistant principal that I worked with there was going to be a principal in East Texas, and we were moving back, and um, he wanted to hire me, and he said, get in a master's program. And so that's kind of what kept pushing me.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

That's cool. So, really kind of that mentor who said, Hey, I see something and develop, develop.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Awesome. One of the one of the things that I think is true for education in general, whether it's the classroom, but definitely leadership too, is you you take these courses, you take your master's coursework, and they they you think you have an idea of what it's gonna be like. And then that first day it just looks completely different. So, what are some of the things that either were misconceptions you had or things that you wish you knew about uh the role of an AP before you actually became one?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah. So um I remember the first day, PJ Giamanco is my principal. PJ, yes, yes. Love him, also considering a mentor. Uh and I remember I stepped into my office and I shut the door and I took a deep breath and I went, okay, I'm in charge of all of these things. And there is zero guidebooks. Like there is not a handbook, there's not a guidebook, and the person who was in the chair before you doesn't leave a lot behind. Right. Um and so you just kind of have to start from scratch. And I'm gonna ask questions. So if there's something that I want to make sure that I'm doing right, I'm asking questions. So I'm getting my list of questions together. Um, but I will also say a misconception is control. I can't control everything. Yeah. And um, even though you want to from the position you're in, it's just out of your control sometimes. And so you have to be able to help the building for what it needs and know that you're out of you can't control everything that's coming down.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Yeah. And even if there was a guidebook, it probably wouldn't include the things that you're going to encounter on any given day. And and I think the high school, and and tell me what you guys think, but I think the high school assistant principal, associate principal, even more so maybe than a principal, um, just has to make 10,000 decisions a day and encounter a million different situations a day, and you never, you know, probably no two days really look alike.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

No. And honestly, if someone said, Mary, what do you do? Yeah, you can't describe it. I'm not sure that I could tell you.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

You name it, I've done it.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

All of the bullet points that go in my role.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Yeah, I mean, you know, we do job descriptions and HR, and there's not enough paper to put in what an assistant principal does every single day. No, you know, I and I think that control thing, Mary, is is interesting because we've talked uh amongst us before on this podcast is you know, what what we've realized in leadership is you don't have to have all the answers all the time. And it's okay to step back and go, you know what, I don't know right now, but I'm gonna come back to you. Um and and I think we all talked about being okay, not in full control all the time. And I but I think our personalities are that way. Yeah, yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Yeah, and there can be this you know pressure that we put on ourselves when you get in a position of leadership that I'm supposed to have all the answers now. Like I'm the person in charge. So I should have an answer, but really it's just not it's not realistic and sometimes not helpful.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

That's right. Yep. I remember you you you mentioned about being in charge of all that. Um a friend of mine, superintendent now, I said, you know, he he had been a principal before and we were kind of talking, and he said, you know, your realization is when you walk up that first day to the school and you look to your left and you look to the right of the building, and you realize I'm in charge of all of this. Yeah. It's kind of that it sinks in your gut a little bit. So I know that feeling. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

So, how many years have you been at AP now?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Um, five.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Five.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

And then I have a year of curriculum and instructional coaching.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Gotcha. So your leadership philosophy evolves the more years you you've been in education. So as of now, what would you say are those three core leadership traits that an effective assistant principal should have?

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Yes, I'm just gonna talk from you know my leadership, um the way I like to lead. And one is no different than the classroom, building relationships, building the trust with my staff and um parents of the community and my students. And so I think coming in and taking time to nurture that and build those relationships because I'm very solution-minded. So I'm gonna want to put systems in place to help the building and to help my students. But in order to do that successfully, I got to have trust in the staff. So that's my hook. And then the other one is just transparency. Um, I like to have an open door. My phone is, you know, I don't have those barriers like your healthy barriers that you probably should with work. But um, I under like I I loved working with the age group so much. I know how the mind works being a teacher and just never wanted to lose that. So it took me a while to want to come out of the classroom because as a leader, I always want to think from the mind of if I was a classroom teacher. And that just helps me make better decisions and put systems in place for the building.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

So thinking about, I mean, because you work with a phenomenal leader, Dr. Fingers is phenomenal. And, you know, I I I kind of have an insight of the the responsibilities that you have underneath that. So, and he allows you to do a lot of things and you have a lot of autonomy in what you do. So, thinking about that, what do you see as your role as an you know the associate principal and in kind of shaping and maintaining that culture? And, you know, what what do you think is that ideal culture for a school?

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah, um, yes, I am very fortunate uh to work with Alex and what he allows me to do. Um I will say education is hard and it's getting harder by the day, and we know that. Um, and it makes me sad. It actually breaks my heart because it's a passion of ours to to make sure students are successful and to support the adults who want to make sure our students are successful. There's a lot of outside factors and barriers that are that we have no control over, even our districts. Um, so because of that, we have to pour in to the teachers who are doing the work. So um I make sure that even in the minor things, I want feedback. I want to know um with a master schedule that I build what works best for you during the day. When we flipped from a block schedule, and this is probably a lot of information. So I apologize. When we flipped from a block schedule of 90-minute classes to um eight period day, um, I never thought about the layout of switching in between classes, like preps, and immediately came up like, Mary, this was tough. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 14:54

Especially for like a summons doing letters and things like that. That is tough.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Uh you're absolutely right. So now I'm intentional about laying out their schedule if they have multiple preps where I cluster those together so they can feel like they are they can sit in that um prep for a minute and feel successful and then switch. And maybe that's a lunch or a conference, and then they can switch over. There, I don't have a magic wand, so I'm not able to do it 100% of the time, but I'm very intentional. Things like that, I think the teachers respect. And then we see that in the classroom of them feeling more confident about they're not, you know, flying around trying to change from one prep to the next. And so um I listen and I try to make sure that we're doing the best to our ability with what we have so that they can be successful um inside the classroom. And I think with that, it's just a respect. So then when we come in with the goals of the year, especially with the accountability piece, and we mark them high, they trust us and they know that that we're there to support them and to give them everything that they might need in order to reach that goal. And we're seeing those goals met, and that's huge. And that just makes for a happy, um, kind of um exciting culture inside the building. So, and you know, it's genuine. Alex and I, our doors are open all the time, everybody on the A team, and so they know that they could text, they can come in. So, and we want what's best.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

I can vouch for that. I've been over there.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

So I I think if you were to ask any campus leader what's the most important part of your job, I think the textbook answer is I'm an instructional leader. I I support instruction. I know that's a the biggest part of what you do as the academic associate. The reality is as a campus leader, I believe that's what we all strive for. And then you have discipline and emergency drills and you know, parents showing up and something going wrong and 10 people out that you don't have subs for and all these things. So how do you, or what advice do you have for an aspiring leader on how you maintain the importance of instructional leadership with all of these other things and managerial tasks going on around you all the time?

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah, that's a great question. I think that's a misconception. I will say um being in the hallways and getting to be in the classrooms, that's intentional planning from an administrator. That's making sure you're blocking a calendar, you're getting up from the desk and you're walking out into the halls because that's that's the fun part in our because an instructional leader is just it's a blast to be in the classroom and to work with, you know, be around the students and they see you and the teachers love it even. And so, but you can get bogged down. Uh, and it comes flying at you from all directions at all every minute of the day. So if you're not intentional at blocking out your calendar to get some walk, even 30 minutes, I'm gonna get three walkthroughs done.

SPEAKER_05 17:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

I'm gonna, you know, make sure I stop by lunch, you know, two of the three today and catch the other one tomorrow. That that would be a huge advice point uh from me for a new leader because it took me a while to get that down.

SPEAKER_04 18:13

It's it's hard not to get stuck in the office.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

And the discipline will continue to fly in. The phone calls happen, the emergencies happen, and you've got to determine what's truly an emergency, what's a high priority, and what is better for you in that moment as an instructional leader on campus. Can that hold for just about five minutes and let me go into the hallway and see the students and see the staff?

SPEAKER_03 18:37

And that can be even something from, you know, hey, I need to call the principal back, or I need to touch base with the principal, or someone in central office left you a message, and you have to make that decision. And they are not always the top priority. It should always be the school, and they will understand if you don't get back with them right away.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

That's right. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

So Michael mentioned that as a secondary administrator, you're making, you know, hundreds of decisions per day. What are some of the toughest decisions that you're faced with in your role?

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah, my role would be master schedule and looking at the staff and the sections and having to make decisions where it changes them, like a 180 on what they've been teaching and having to have these conversations about what I think they could be really successful in, but we need to process that together. And what would you need from me? And in the past few years, it's really been hey, there's gonna be three preps with this schedule. How do you feel about that? Because what I don't need is to immediately throw it on them, surprise them, and say, here you go, have fun. Because that's not fair for the teacher and that's not fair for the students. And so it's it's forever feeling like it's shaky on that part of it because you just don't know the pieces until the all the dominoes fall. And um, and there's always a big surprise. And so in the surprise, it usually changes, um, even though, you know, I am chemistry only certified. I can't believe I say that out loud because that's not a thing anymore. But uh, you know, most high school teachers are composite, and so that's great, except for you didn't want me teaching physics. Uh yeah, you know, you just didn't. And so it's the comfort of like really truly finding the right fit in um getting that um right for the teacher and for the students.

SPEAKER_04 20:39

And high school teachers love change and surprises, so I'm sure that goes. Well, and and sometimes those dominoes fall in July.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

And you're like, I had no idea that was coming. I had everything set, and you have to be pivot. I hate that word, but I mean you have to be flexible in in and looking at all that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Yes, and that's where that trust comes in with your staff because they know that I would never intentionally just, hey, I think this sounds great. Yeah. What do you think? You know, it it they they understand.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

I'm starting to see a pattern in your answers, and it's a great pattern to see because I I can tell that in any decision that you make, you you think to yourself, how is this going to impact my staff? And that's great for aspiring administrators to think about because they are the boots on the ground. Any policy that is developed by the district, by the school, they are the ones that are going to have to implement it.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Yeah, and I think that it's kind of become trite to say all things we do are what are best for students. And of course it is. I think there are administrators sometimes too that use that as an excuse to treat their staff however they choose and say, well, get over it. It's for it's what's best for kids. So I I agree that I like that that you're always of course we're doing what's best for kids, but we've got to also value and appreciate and respect the the adults in the building.

SPEAKER_04 21:56

Yeah, there's a balance for sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Absolutely.

unknown 21:59

So

SPEAKER_04 22:00

You know, we've talked about some of the, you know, difficult things you have to do day to day. And and I mean, it is, I mean, we've all served in the, you know, um AP role before, and we understand the grind it is, but when you think about, you know, all the challenges that you do every day, what would you say is the most rewarding part of your job?

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah. So last night I got to experience the Lady Mustang soccer team um win and move on to um the state semifinals in a very tough game. Yeah. Um, and just being on the field with them at the end and jumping for joy and being a nervous wreck in the middle of the PKs with Alex. Um, and seeing the staff there supporting their students and cheering along just as hard. That's what I love about high school is um the full picture that we get with the students and seeing them succeed not only in the classroom, but outside of the classroom. And there's some hard roads that are walked um between the student and the teacher, getting them there to success because the classroom part is not always um the one that a student loves. You know, they may love the extracurricular a little bit more than the classroom. And so it's making sure those standards are met and then also getting to celebrate them outside. And honestly, for me, it's both my teachers and staff and the students. It's celebrating both of those because we've had some big wins in the classroom this year, and we've tried some new things, and it's just seeing the joy on my teachers' faces too, seeing their students succeed. And so it makes it all worth it.

SPEAKER_04 23:43

It's those little wins.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Little wins. Yep. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

There are teachers in the classroom right now that want to be an assistant principal at some point. Um, what advice do you have for them and what are some practical steps they can be taking now to prepare themselves for that role and all the all the many things they will face?

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Yeah. I think back to me in the classroom and just never really like envisioning myself there yet until I stepped out of the classroom into the instructional role. Um I would say go ahead and figure out what type of leadership uh committees you could be a part of um within your school and also in the district. Um, I think that's always um a great way to find your voice and to see if you actually like um being a leader in the in the room, um, especially with adults, because it's great to close your door and teach your students. It's a whole different thing when um you've got a room full of adults staring at you, going, and what do you know? Because a high school, a high school teacher is very critical. And that and broadfully so. I I mean I used to be one, so I get it. So um also if it's something that you're really interested in, I would say shadowing, seeing if you can shadow one of your administrators and kind of just see what the day-to-day looks like, uh maybe one day and doing a duty, come to duty and see kind of what that looks like for an administrator, and then just continue to work on those leadership experiences in any shape or form you can.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

You touched on something really interesting because so often, as a new leader, especially a young leader, like an assistant principal role, um, you are leading people that may have decades more educational experience than you do. I remember starting as an assistant principal under Dave and leading a team where there were people on the team that were teaching in the same district while I was in high school. You know, and so when you then go to them and you want to roll out a new initiative that's gonna change some of what they do on a regular basis, there can that is a challenge that I don't think people always think about, you know, coming in as a young person and really having to be um confident and well researched when you roll anything out, because you know, in particular, like you said at a high school, but really anywhere, there they will challenge it if it if it uh does not align with what they think might be best.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

So one of the things that aspiring principals have to know is is how to, and we did an entire episode on this, is how to balance work and life. How do you balance work and life? We came to the conclusion that it's not really gonna be 50-50, but how do you do it?

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Well, I'm not very good at it.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

We aren't either.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

Yeah, we all came to that conclusion too.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

But I will say, um, I I started some hobbies. You know, they always get you fill things out with your hobby, and when you're in a role like this, you're like, going to athletic events, going to fine arts. Um, but um, I did Donna Gun. I know we all probably know her. I've begged her for years to teach me how to needlepoint because I thought that would be fun for my brain. And um, she did. She taught me this year. So I will say I have taken on a very expensive hobby. My husband is very happy about it. Um, and so I that's something that I did start for myself this year is a new hobby of needlepointing. But no, I am not the best at balancing. I wish I could say am because it would be healthier if I was. Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

So, what are you making, like blankets or socks? What are you doing with this needle point thing?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

So um I made a paperweight for my desk that I just got back. Um, and then I am in the middle of making a master's gnome. Uh yeah, the frame um because big golf family. So um, and then um I made a Moddy Girl uh just the Moddy Girl canvas um for my background and my roots. And then um, yeah, so just uh the gopher from Caddyshack uh just finished it and it's gonna become a tray.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

I I was going like knitting, wasn't I? That's different. Yeah, you can tell I don't know that much about it.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Oh, it's totally good. It is like I am I am like you know obsessed.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Planning on starting a business?

SPEAKER_01 28:08

You know, I thought about it. I thought, wow, what would my life be like if I owned a local needle store? Yeah. On some of those days where you're making like 17,000 decisions.

SPEAKER_04 28:21

Yeah, you're thinking, I just want to pick out like my next project. That's all I want. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

I'd be really good at the customer service.

SPEAKER_04 28:28

Absolutely. Absolutely. So you you've talked um multiple times in this interview about trust. And you know, I think we all have talked about that on our different podcasts or our different episodes about how important that is. As someone who, you know, is maybe wanting to go into kind of that leadership role, what would be some advice you would give to them on what are some intentional things you can do in building trust with all your stakeholders, really? Because that position, you got to build it with everybody.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

It's a real gradual process. It is not a um come in and immediately think that it's gonna happen. And you have to take time to nurture that. Um, so kind of like you said, you went into an administrative role and at the place where you went to high school. My first administrative job was where I was a teacher. So I came out of the classroom with all of the people I worked with and was an administrator for them.

SPEAKER_05 29:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

And um, fun fact, um, my principal left me for assistant soup job in the middle of that year. And so I ended up really kind of being the person in the building and that was consistent. And so I really had to make some hard decisions. And so it started with the trust that I had with my team that I worked with, and I was on the third floor. So I didn't actually know everyone in the building. And so working slowly with them on knowing that I was a teacher supporter. But at the same time, if we were having some issues, having some direct conversation that was transparent of the why behind why we're having this conversation and how we can change and grow and continue on. Also built trust. And so in the end, as we were coming up with new systems that needed to be put in place, I had a hundred percent buy-in. So then I come to Grapevine and nobody knows me.

SPEAKER_04 30:29

You're the unknown.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

I'm the unknown. And um fun fact, um, you know, I Mandy was in there before me. And, you know, if you put us on paper, we kind of look, we uh, you know, our we're both have East Texas roots. Our husbands are coaches, you know, so hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

But um And now you can both say that you've been on ed leadership on Texas. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

It's so coming in, I knew I didn't want to force myself on the staff. I wanted them to get to know me like I was getting to know them. So it was really important for me to start learning names quickly and also what they taught. Um, also knowing who I was leaning into and working with um a lot, like Mary Parsley.

SPEAKER_05 31:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

And building those relationships and what I bring to the table, the insight I bring, but also what insight do they bring? And so what can we see together? Um, and it took me probably a good three months, and my door was always open. I was in the halls, um, I was in classrooms, but people finally started kind of knowing what I bring or if they brought a problem to me, what we could talk about solutions. And I slowly started getting um that trust. And from there, it just kind of took off, especially with the change of the master. And that was difficult. Um, honestly, the first day the staff met me, I had to tell them that lesson plans were a thing. And I thought, well, there went my shot. No one's ever gonna trust me. And so I listened to them and we developed a template that actually worked for them. So that was my first small win.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

I got to roll out a lesson plan template. So that's bringing back some little bit of drama there.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yeah, and then uh and then from there, it was just helping throughout the year and then making sure when the master and the change came from block scheduling that we had a lot of roundtable talks. I like round table talks. Um, and that's just us here, me hearing the apprehension, but also being able to talk to some of the positives because being in different districts, I have done all schedules.

SPEAKER_05 32:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

So I could bring positives and negatives to all conversations. So that kind of helped with my science team and labs and kind of could speak to. And so slowly but surely the trust is built from there. And so, um, and they know, like I said, I'm such a teacher supporter. It's such a hard job. And so um, I want to make sure that I'm there for them because they're the boots on the ground, they're the ones that are making sure the students are successful.

SPEAKER_03 33:11

How do you deal with teachers who kind of give you pushback? Because I know not all the teachers, once you give them the rationale for what you're doing, are gonna say, oh yes, great, we'll do it. So how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Well, I've never dealt with. Just kidding. Um, yeah, so there's some hard sales for sure. I mean, it's not always a walk in the park. Um, so the common goal most of us have is student success. I mean, if you're in a for me, if you're in a high school building, you're in there because you like working with that age group and you want to see them succeed. And so I always go back to the common goal of student success. Again, I listen to their point of view of the pushback, but then I have to sometimes have that direct conversation that this is why we're going in this direction, this is what I need to see, and then um get some support in there to make sure that we're gonna see that um and and celebrate the wins along the way.

SPEAKER_04 34:10

That's huge.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Yeah. So it's not always a negative experience that it becomes a more of a positive experience. And most of the time, if there is some pushback, it's just because of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of the change. So when you start supporting something that's changing, or you know, it it becomes a little bit lighter when you see that it's not so bad.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

As you've continued to learn the job and grow in the role, is there any particular book um that's impacted your leadership along the way?

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Yeah, you're gonna laugh because it's not like truly a leadership book. Those are the best ones, yeah. I know. It's the fundamental five. Um, so when Sean Kane. I guess. So when I um came out of the classroom and was an instructional coach, I was in East Texas. I moved from um college station, brand new high school, all the curriculum, all the things.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Can you please stop saying college station?

SPEAKER_01 35:05

I know, I know. It's like, you know, it's like a tick over here.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Instinct, it just happened. Reflex.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

It's hilarious. Um, but um I moved to Nacadoges, Texas. And um, they didn't have the best test scores. And they had a brand new principal, and he hired me, and I was the only outsider he hired to come in and kind of like lead the charge of the instructional um side of coaching and also curriculum. And um he hired Sean Kane. And Sean Kane and I got to work together. He taught me a lot because what I needed to learn is we got to catch the instruction in the classroom, not at home and homework. And um, we've got to know what's working and what's not working. And that has led me to a lot of different strategies and trusting the data that I'm seeing from that, but also that pushback. You know, when you go and work in a school that it's forever a revolving door of leadership on top of the scores are not ever what they need to be, but the teacher is working so hard. Yeah, that's very difficult. I mean, because they're like, oh great, you have a magic wand for a year. Let's see what you have next year, you know, and the what like that silver bullet. Exactly. Like my plate's full over here, but sure, add more to it. And so I honestly got some of my best skills of like learning how to lead from that job, um, and and working with Sean on what truly works in the classroom and seeing that. And so since then he's revamped a little bit. Um, and so I I study that a lot just because the 45-minute class periods were hard for someone who's used to 90 minutes, and what we were missing was framing the lesson. And so that's something that we've worked really hard on the past few years, is just making sure that we're opening and closing, and so the students know what it is they're learning and how they can uh you know apply it and then go out the door, and we're seeing gains from that, and so that's been that's been a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 37:13

God, you mentioned opening and closing a lesson immediately. Madeline Hunter came to mind. Man, I'm old.

SPEAKER_04 37:21

So as as this is kind of a two-pronged question. So in your time as you know, in in your role, if you could take a time machine back and say, All right, Mary, this is my first day. You walked in there and you said, All right, what advice would you give first day, Mary? And what what is a couple nuggets of advice you'd give someone who's aspiring to be an assistant principal? Take either one first.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Okay. First day, Mary. I would say uh take a deep breath because it's all gonna be okay. Uh you know what I mean? Like inside your head can go crazy. As a leader, this is what I've learned, and this is advice too. You have to be calm. You can be a tornado inside your head, but you have to put off warmth and calm. And I'll say this best. Mike Otto one time told me, Mary, this building could be on fire. And I would look at you and run to you, and you would say, Okay, Mike, we're going to exit out this door and your kids are gonna go here. And I never knew that about myself truly until someone pointed it out. Because if you are hyper-aware and you are responding in a way that causes stress, everybody's gonna feed off of you. And so as a new leader, I would say, even if you don't know the answers, because you don't have to, you don't have to know everything, you just take a deep breath and you say, Okay, I will get back to you. And you can close that door and you find that person who is like your, you know, partner and your mentor, and you give a phone call, or you go into their office and say, Oh my gosh, what is it that we're doing? Um, and so that you can learn and talk to someone like that and then come back out with the answer and you're still calm and you have the solution or whatever you needed. Um, but yes, for me, it going back into it, I was so nervous because it's difficult to go in and no one knows you and they don't know your leadership style, they don't know how you taught in the classroom, they don't know your experience. Um, and just take that deep breath and know that you know it's the best place. I mean, that staff is wonderful, those kids are great and it all works out.

SPEAKER_04 39:35

So, you know, obviously your your goal and next step is to move into a principal role. So as as you know, you've you've served under different leaders and and so are there some a couple of things. Are there some things that you've kind of learned from the different leaders you've worked with, or are there some things that you go, all right, I need to improve a little bit here to maybe make that next step?

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Yeah, so like with every role in education, I think we're always in the growth mindset. So, you know, you want to make sure that you're continuing to push yourself to growth. So there's there are things I'm like, I'm not great at that part. So I want to grow or I'll kind of want to get my feet wet. And that's kind of how in the past, since I've been at Grapevine, I've just kind of put my hands in things I didn't know. For example, James Rhys, you will laugh at me if you're listening to this. Um, we had an assistant principal who was a band director who left for a principal job. And I didn't really know bands. That is one part of the high school I didn't know. And I knew that if I ever want to be a principal, I needed to understand bands. Yeah. And so I asked Alex, I said, can I can I be ever a band? And he said, sure. And James and I, we are thick as thieves.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

I know he's laughing. But it it spread your wings.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

It did, it spread my wings. I learned so much, and I continue to learn. And um, but I'm also able to bring some things to the table as well from a leadership standpoint to that. I don't necessarily have to know how to play the instruments or what I mean, they're amazing. Got to go to Carnegie Hall recently with them over spring break, and I mean, just super talented. But um, that is something that I have worked on is the things that I'm maybe not as comfortable with, making sure I'm spreading my wings and getting there.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Um I love that you sought that out though, because I think the easiest thing to do is stay in the areas where we're comfortable. Like I was an ELA teacher, so let me just be over the English department and just do the things I'm familiar with. But if we stay in that lane, we're never growing the way that you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Well, now you know how much I've grown in the English role, Michael Crow.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

She's she's an ELA pro now.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

I am learning very well.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

I I think she likes us better than science now.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

I do.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

You're great.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

Well, no, I think it is noticing those blind spots. And and I mean, moving into the principal role, you're still there's still gonna be blind spots. I mean, there's nothing that you know, we've all talked about it. Moving into that, you you go, oh my, I had no idea they did X, Y, and Z. Yeah. Um, but I mean, to be as well rounded as you can to step into that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Yeah, and I've worked for some incredible leaders. I mean, incredible leaders, and they all lead in their own way. And I think that was that's what makes us unique. We all have our own kind of spin on our leadership, and um, and that's what makes good admin teams. Everybody can be a little bit different in the way they deliver, or you know, in how they um their strengths.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

And you can play to other people's weaknesses. Um, but you know, I had a principal who I've actually had most of my mentors have become superintendents.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

So you you grow them. You grow them.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Yes, it's it's all me. But um they uh one of them um is lives in a town that I will not say out loud. Um and um he um just the way he built culture in our building, the way he set high expectations. As a teacher, I was like, I'm gonna go teach as hard as I can from bell to bell and make sure these kids are successful. And that's how the whole building felt. So I learned so much from that uh leader on the way that he developed his goals in the way that he um he gave us leadership opportunities and he sought you out. Like I was like, I'm sorry, what you what do you want me to do? Oh, now you want me to coach chair too. Great.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

And I've just learned like the pulse of the building from another leader, like under really knowing the pulse. People don't realize that you may have that. Um, but it's a it's a thing you need from a leadership standpoint. Um, you know, you you kind of know where all your weaknesses are, you know where. your strengths are and understanding that pulse and how things run. And um and then just also just genuine, um, authentic yourself.

SPEAKER_04 44:11

Yeah. You know, you're well, we've talked about, you know, the best leaders are those high expectations, high relationships.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

And I mean you're kind of hitting on all of those right now. Yeah. No, that that is Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

And and I've just been fortunate to learn from a lot of different ones and and take take knowledge from those, but also have a on my own spin on what um worked for me. But again, it all goes back to how were you in the classroom? How did you like to build those relationships with your students? Were you one who took time to kind of peel back the onion layer to get them to trust you because everybody loves chemistry. Absolutely they wanted to come into my classroom and they were super excited. So it would that was that was a goal of mine very competitive. So everybody's gonna have a light bulb moment with me in this classroom. You may hate it and that's okay, but you're gonna be successful.

SPEAKER_04 45:04

Well you know I I've had the great opportunity to work with you over the years and you know all the things that you're talking about those relationships and and that that culture and those high expectations that's who you are and and you do a phenomenal job in that and and and are very successful in what you do. And you know we we so appreciate you taking the time today just to hop on with us three knuckleheads and and you know just your your experience and what you bring to the table is is ideal in what you do. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

Yeah I was excited to join y'all so thank you for asking you know when when when I text hey Mary give me a call and I was like oh gosh the director of HR wants me to call it you just never know it's the director of HR he's got to keep that in mind because I'll get that occasional and we've been friends for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

I'll get that hey I need you down in my office and I'm like the director of HR just told me he needs me down in his office. Yeah I usually get the text back everything okay? Yes we're fine.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

It's funny you said that because Steve McBride today oh like I called the forest student for something um that was not disciplinary and so I said please tell them that it's they're not in trouble and Steve was at my door and he was like could you please just tell me that every time you call me like hey can you come down also you're not in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

I was like really you really need that for me that you're in trouble he started dying laughing.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

Well Mary we uh do an on tap segment every episode and we'd love it if you could join us. Yes. All right you guys ready?

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Let's go all right so the what we've got on tap today we're gonna do a little little retro little throwback here um and we're gonna actually go back to trends from our childhood or teen years. So trends from our youth something that was really cool back in the day. Now Gilbert you have to go way back the rest of us would go medium sized back but something that was really cool back in the day as a trend that we wish was still around or would come back in some way. So Dave, what do you have? What what what's something from back in the day that you wish would come back?

SPEAKER_04 47:12

You know I I I lived for those after school cartoons. What was what was your go to what were you know any of the Looney Tunes you know the Flintstones the Jetsons Scooby-Doo you know just you get home maybe grab a little snack and and settle in until dinner time and just that decompression time was man. My favorite Looney Tunes character Foghorn Leghorn yeah like it don't ask me to do an impersonation because I think I mean there's just simpler times you just pop in front of the TV for your little uh you know Flintstones or Jetsons and you know then dinner time and and it was all good.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

Gilbert you know I'm gonna go with the mood ring. Okay I don't know if you guys remember but the mood ring you like the pet rock. That's right you had a ring and it changed colors according to your mood but it wasn't always accurate. You know you could say you were depressed but you were happy as ever I I figure with today's technology the mood ring would be a lot more accurate. And so that's what I would bring back. That way people would see hey I'm not having a good day so leave me alone or hey he's happy let's ask him for something Mary?

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Um well I grew up kind of in a very country area per se and we loved the bowling alley on Friday nights and I think you know that is sometimes forgotten now or it's gotten super fancy. And so super fancy I think is yeah it is yeah yeah and I just miss the nuts of just bowling with your friends and um you know going to get a slice of pizza and just hanging out I think and no text messaging. Yeah it was just your parents dropped you off and then they came back hours later. And they'd go have dinner or whatever and yeah yeah I'm sure the owner of the bowling alley loved us do you still have your skills can you can you know it's been it's been a long time I'm not quite sure if I can do it well or not.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

What was your best scoring game?

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Oh my gosh I have no idea I really don't I think we were just we just love to throw it down the you know lane and go. We just had so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

I'd put that kind of on par like we'd go bowling some um K-State had a student union and they had the bowling alley so it's a little you know we'd go up there and goof around but the roller skating same kind of yeah the roller skating bowling yeah yeah yeah all right Carl I'm I'm gonna go with if you remember ABC on Friday nights back in the day I don't know what this says about me and my Friday nights but I was a kid so it's okay. Uh but TGIF you remember yeah TGIF you you'd have that couple hours of shows that came on and it was full house and family matters eventually you had some boy meets world and step by step step by step yes the theme songs are all coming back right now I used to love like that opening TGIF song and I just knew for the next two hours I was going to sit there and do nothing and just enjoy watching some shows.

SPEAKER_04 50:15

I remember my I think it was Friday night was Dukes a hazard. Yeah yeah Dukes a hazard that was a that was a must watch for Dave Denning. Big fan of Daisy were you uh Uncle Jesse You know I think my second one was you know kind of to go along with what Mary said was you know with the bowling alley roller skating was just the no technology. You know we're getting close to the summer months here and man I remember those summer months we'd get on our bikes and just go. And you know growing up in a smaller town you know everybody kind of knew you and I mean we'd get on our bikes in the morning go down the park goof around all day and it is you know that old saying you know be back before the you know street lights are on and just no cares and and you know not on light 360 checking where you are and and um you know text messages checking and and just that simpler time I think I would bring back MTV in its original format.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

You know the MTV it's music television and once upon a time once upon a time yeah and now I think it's all talk.

SPEAKER_04 51:22

It's gone.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yeah yeah it's yeah I think it's gone wow yeah that shows how much I pay attention anyway I would bring back music television with all music videos what was your top video Gilbert dire straits money for nothing yeah yeah good choice good choice Mary do you do you have another one well also in the summertime by 9 a.m I was at the golf course and I was playing golf all day and uh swimming and charging all my snacks to my parents but it was literally sunup to sundown you know um it's funny because no technology but back then my parents didn't even want us in front of the TV all day you know so it's like get outside get outside get active and so it and all your friends were there too and so it was just those times of again safety you know like no one even worried about you your your kind of freedom on your own at a young age um and it was just a really neat time.

SPEAKER_04 52:26

You know kind of go with that my my good friend Brad neighbors and I we we'd go fishing and my mom before work you know she would wake us up and she would take us oh god the lake was probably 10 miles away and just drop us off. Yeah you know before we could drive and she'd be you know hey I'll be back at be back at noon to pick y'all up and no worries. Yeah no worries.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Yeah along along those same lines of that freedom hanging out at the mall is something that I miss. And just hanging with your friends and you're there for several hours not really buying anything or doing much but you're just wandering around with hanging fine mills or northeast mall for Michael Crow both I you know I had experiences with both and great experiences at both. But you got the food court you got we'd go wander around and and look at stuff in Spencer gifts that we should probably shouldn't have been looking at at that age and um you know just they have the arcade you'd go into the arcade you got the movie theater everything you could ever want it was in the mall including great company back in the day. So I'd bring that back.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

What was your go-to food court place?

SPEAKER_02 53:28

Oh I loved that uh Sabaro pizza oh yeah yeah super still hits if you yeah yeah greasy as can be it'll drip all over your plate but man was it delicious all right listeners we'd love to hear some feedback from you what are some trends from your childhood that you would bring back also if you have any uh feedback on our episode on in the chair we'd love to hear that as well you can reach out to us at info at edleadershipontap.com that's info at edleadershipontap.com or you can hit us up on all the socials the Facebooks the Instagram and the Twitter sphere you can also send us a text message through whatever app you listen to our Pat podcast on uh just hit the send a text button and we'll get that right away once more we want to thank our special guests at Mary Smith today for joining us and until next time keep leading the