SPEAKER_02 0:23

Welcome to Ed Leadership on Tap. Um, we are up to episode 15, gentlemen. How are you guys this morning?

SPEAKER_00 0:30

It is wonderful. Everything's great. I thought we'd be canceled long before now, so I'm very excited. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Maybe we'll make it to 20. All right. So last week we had a great episode, a wonderful guest, Dr. Mike Finnegan, where we uh went unplugged with leadership.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Got a lot of uh really positive feedback and just you know some of the practical things. And so one of our listeners uh, you know, kind of sent us a very nice message that, you know, you three are just getting better and better. And to add Dr. Mike Finnegan was just kind of that cherry on top. She did have one question. This is our longtime listener, Nancy. You know, we talked in our episode about the people who made a difference, our mentors. You know, we Mike and I both talked about Greg Hoyt, and we had the same second grade teacher. She asked, You two talked about the people who made the difference in your life. Have you sent them a note telling them how you feel and just kind of that difference that they have made in your life? And that's something that we always need to remember that, you know, in education, it's not always the paycheck, it's those little things.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah. And I think that's powerful. And I remember reaching out to a teacher that I had in high school English a few years back on Facebook, and I hadn't talked to her in 15, 20 years, but it was one of those things that I was like, whatever hit me that day, I was like, I need to let her know she made me a better person, she made my life better, and she probably doesn't even realize that.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yeah, I remember we talked also, remember, in our first episode about the people that got us into administration. Yeah. So yeah, that's a great idea. So I'm taking that time. Yes. I need to look someone up. Hopefully I can find them.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Hey, Google. Mike was a lot of fun to have on, and literally, as he's talking, I'm sitting here taking my own notes and I have those on my phone. And one of the things he said that I really liked is just keeping your mind where your feet are. Yeah. I think it's so easy to be thinking about, you know, what am I supposed to be doing next and what is the path supposed to look like? And and he really emphasized, you know, putting everything into where you're the moment that you're in right now.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Yeah. If you take care of your business, um, the next step will come.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Absolutely. I really like his his thought about being interested, not interesting. Um, you know, I think so so many times we get into conversation situations where you're just thinking, you know, your mind's racing 100 miles an hour, but taking the time to really be interested in the moment, um, I that's something that really kind of stuck with me.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

I don't I don't know how if we have young listeners, but this struck me when he said that, I was like, that's great dating advice. Because honestly, think about like a first date, people are always like, How can I present myself as interesting when in reality, like if you are showing legitimate, genuine interest in that other person, a lot of times that's the thing that pulls them in? Yeah. Look at that. We're turned into a dating show here.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Next thing you know, we'll be a version of The Bachelor.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, I know. I know it's premiering soon. Well, Bachelorette, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

All right. Did we get some feedback also on the one song and one movie you would listen to or see for the rest of your life?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, you know, and and talking to my lovely wife about this, and and I knew her artist would be George Strait. There's no question. And and she gave me two, kind of cheating a little bit here, but she said either uh the chair or baby blue. So you can't go wrong with uh George Strait probably would have about 40 of them you could pick.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah, you pretty much just throw a dart, you're gonna hit a great George Strait song. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Yeah, we did have a listener that felt bad that I didn't include a Prince song. So uh uh they said Purple Rain would be their song, okay, and for their movie it was 10 Things I Hate About You.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah, and a lot of people don't know that's inspired by Shakespeare. Taming of the Shrew inspired 10 Things I Hate About You. Wow, resident English guy here.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

We have some sophisticated listeners.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yeah, that's we're targeting the right audience here. Um, you know, maybe and along the same lines of what Dave did, I asked my wife just out of curiosity, and I should have known the answer. Um, but her movie would be Sweet Home Alabama. I think we're sitting around the house and it comes on some channel probably almost every single day. And anytime she stops, you know, she sees it as she's scrolling, I know what we're gonna be doing for the next hour or two because she never scrolls past that.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

What is the line in that you have a baby in a bar? You've got a baby in a bar. In a bar. Yeah, we've used that one a couple times. We have we have as well.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

All right. So thank you, listeners, for that feedback. Please continue to send it in. Um, you guys ready to talk about some hiring practices?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Let's go. Well, gentlemen, it is that time of the year in education. Um, we are kind of getting towards the end of March, getting past spring break. Um, people are starting to make some decisions for the next school year. And this is this is like my Super Bowl season in the position I'm in in human resources. We are now in hiring season.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

That's right. This is about the time where principals start sending out feelers to their staff and asking, are you coming back? so they know which positions they have to fill.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yep, that master board starting to, you know, you know, you're pulling the dust off it a little bit and moving people around and uh figuring out what you're going to need for this next school year.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

And I think it can be a really stressful time. I remember it was for me early on, but maybe it doesn't have to be. So maybe there's some ideas we can throw around to help uh help campus or building leaders make their way successfully through this time.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Absolutely. So, you know, I think as we're kind of looking at that hiring season as a hiring manager, you know, principal supervisor, um, you know, I think the number one thing that you need to know is what is your culture? You know, we've talked, we've talked our first few episodes about culture, and you need to know what is that look for and that culture that you want to create, either you have or you're trying to create um in your department, in your school, whatnot. So I I think you need to know that as you are moving into hiring season.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah, and hopefully you only need to complement or enhance that culture, sort of evolve it rather than totally tear it up and build a new one because that's usually for your first year on campus, you may hope. So yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

We're coming up on the NFL draft here soon. It's something that I thought about that kind of relates to this is some, you know, a lot of times when a team is preparing to choose someone, you're looking, do I go for the best overall player? Do I go for a person who fills some need that I have? Like, what does that look like? Um, something that I heard that I thought was cool one time was as you're looking at a candidate, rather than thinking, do they fill this hole or vacancy that exists on my campus? Ask yourself while you're talking to them, do I want my campus to be more like this person? And I thought that was really cool. Like from a cultural standpoint, like hopefully to Dr. G's point, hopefully you've got a strong culture in place. But um, as you think through them, not only about the what they have on paper, what they offer in terms of a spot they can fill, but do I want my campus to be more like this person?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

I like that. I think that is a great um thermometer there to to check and see if that is the right person. So I have a question for y'all. You know, when you kind of get into the the season, you know, obviously the position is is posted, people will be emailing you resumes, et cetera. What are things that you guys looked for, say in applications, resumes, et cetera, as as you were starting kind of this process?

SPEAKER_02 8:05

I think the first thing that I look for is experience. You do sometimes take flyers on new teachers, you know, especially if they are very impressive or if you're fit. There aren't any experienced teachers out there. But for me, the most important thing is experience in the content, in the grade level.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

I I always like when someone takes initiative and someone, when someone shows specific interest in your campus and the role that that is there. I think sometimes you you look in that application portal and you see that someone's applied for 17 different jobs and you're like, yeah, they're they're kind of throw again, throwing darts at whatever it, whatever it lands on is great. But but sometimes someone reaches out and expresses specific interest in your school. They know about your school, they know about the culture, they're there, you can tell that they've done research on how your students are performing or where some needs may be, and they can speak to it specifically there. So it's not like, hey, I'm looking for any job. It's like, hey, I'm interested in this job.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

And from the initiative standpoint, I would I would always have, you know, teachers that were applying for something, or or friends even that were applying for something that's like, I don't know if I should email them. That may bother them. Um, I always told them, I think you should. Um when you're when you're looking and there's 50 or 60 applicants and you're trying to go through resumes, I think it's it's hard to decipher between those sometimes when they're all really talented people. But when someone chose the initiative to shoot you that email, and I told them you that you may never get a response from this person, but they're at least seeing your name more than they're seeing those other names. And I think that's got to be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yeah, you know, I I've had the opportunity the last few years to visit with some um classes um at both SMU and TCU and talk to you know aspiring educators, maybe they're in their student teaching right now, and and I tell them the exact same thing, Michael, is you know, they asked, should we reach out? I said, absolutely. I mean, that's not going to hurt anything. And, you know, probably the biggest piece of advice I give them is to proofread, proofread, proofread. Look at your resume, run it, you know, past people, your application, you know, the the little things make that difference and the and the little things can turn you off from even getting in front of a uh hiring committee. You know, I think the the one and and you guys probably have all experienced experienced this as well, is uh when it's principal P-R-I-N-C-I-P-L-E. Yeah. And it's like, all right, you're automatically off the list, you know, it's those little things. So when I'm looking through kind of those applications and resumes, you know, I'm looking for that that um attention to detail. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yeah. One other thing I look for is also the any kind of professional development that they have uh attended or participated in outside of their normal uh school provided, district provided one. You can always tell when you ask a teacher during an interview, can you tell me some professional development that you have attended? And for the most part, um, most of them were not able to give me anything of substance. And so uh have you been to if I see restorative practices on a resume, you know, that'll immediately pop out because you that tells me that you care about classroom management and that there are different approaches to classroom management.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah. We worked alongside Jane Rose at Grave Vaughn High School, and and one thing I loved that she would ask, and it was sometimes it was on the on our list of questions, sometimes it wasn't, but she would always ask, What's what's something that you're reading lately? Yeah. And you know, certainly that could be something that they're they're doing for enjoyment in their own life. But to your point, like a lot of times when it was something um that that related to education in some way, and they could speak passionately and in detail about it, it showed that they are doing some, putting forth some effort outside just the general work day to to grow. Because ultimately that's what I I would want someone that wants to be better tomorrow than they are today, better next year than they were this year. If they have that mindset, it's going to help your campus.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Now, there are also some traits that are hard to find on a resume or on an on a cover line. Uh, one of those would be empathy. So, how do we look for empathy?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

I think that empathy is something that's difficult to fake. And so when you have someone there in the room, it feels sometimes like this person's just trying to answer questions with the right answers. And then other times you can feel, I care about the kids that I'm with, I care about my coworkers, and that comes across in in how they how they speak about them. You could feel some of that emotion coming out. Maybe it's just like an intuitive thing. But to me, it it's hard to fake that.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Yes, if they're able to give you specific in terms of kids' names and situations, not necessarily the full name, but you know, they'll come out with, oh yeah, I remember little Tommy who, you know, if they're able to give you specifics, uh, that's how you can see that.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah. Well, and I think it sounds cliche, but man, you just see that that sparkle in their eye. Yeah. You know, that excitement of, like you said, Michael, not just going through the rope answers of hey, da-da-da-da-da. You know, it is truly that that passion that that you can see in their eyes and in their in their answers. You know, and I I think that goes back to what we kind of said kicking it off is I think as you're kind of developing questions, um, you know, I think there's obviously kind of the quote unquote education questions, but also, you know, what are specific questions that you want for um uh your culture? And and I know we're gonna talk a little bit more about that, but designing those questions on, you know, to really kind of weed out the the empathy in people or the love for kids and people.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

That's right. And for a little teaser, we will have sample questions at the end of this. Yes, we will this episode. So hang in there.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

So once we have the you know, candidate and we've we've gone through all the kind of the early vetting process of them looking at their application resume, you know, we brought them in, we have our questions ready to go. What are some of the things beyond just your normal questions and answers that you can really get a true sense of the educator's impact on your campus?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

I think one thing you're gonna want to see is it to the extent that you can is see them in action. But many people can come in the room and and tell you about their impact. But if you can maybe have them present a teaching demonstration or share some past data analysis or something that that actually allows you to see them in action or see them sharing with with you what they might be sharing with the students, you can you can see it take hold because there are people that can talk a good game and then there are people you put them in that classroom and and they just take over.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Well, and I think you know, one of the things, and and we've done it with you know head coaches or principals or assistant principals is a presentation. You know, oftentimes in those positions, you are going to be asked to present in front of a group. Um, and you know, I think that ability to do that is key. So, you know, if it's maybe a presentation or if um you know a teacher present a lesson, I know um talking with uh our our principal at Colleville Heritage, Derek, he will often ask people to teach them something outside of the you know realm of their subject. You know, if it's you know, teach the group how to throw a fastball or whatever it is, you can pick whatever you want. And so, you know, whether or not it's your subject or not, you can still be a good teacher no matter what it is.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

I think that's cool too, because it it that gives you insight into their personality and you're you're making a connection with that candidate right off the bat, too. Because if they're if they're showing up teaching me how to teach to throw a fastball, then you know, and and I'm a baseball guy, that's something that we can build a connection on right then as they're transitioning into your staff.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yep. And it also shows that how well they can think on their feet, which as you know it's uh essential for a successful teacher.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Sure. Yep. You know, I think I think one of the things is you're developing the questions too, is to develop them where they give you examples, you know, and and that's one thing I've talked to, you know, these young uh aspiring teachers about is you got to talk down at the ground level. You know, we can all talk about, you know, how are we going to handle discipline in the classroom or designing lesson plans, but then give some examples, you know, really as the hiring team, listening for those examples. Um, you know, well, I use this as my behavioral system, whatever it is. Well, then how did you actually put it into practice? And and I think sometimes people get lost by not getting down to the surface level of actually implementation of things.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

You know, one thing also that I used to use is find out how they interact with other people on your campus.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

110%.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

I know um Tiffany, my admin assistant, they would always spend like 10 minutes before the actual interview began. And so she knew to kind of ask a couple of questions. She observed if any kids came up to her desk, whether the candidate interacted with the students and how they interacted with the students. So that's very important in my my opinion. How comfortable are they in that area while they're waiting?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yep. Yep. No, I think you know, Tilly was always kind of my gauge on on how they acted. And, you know, I I think I think some of that is, you know, if if they can't engage, like you said, or, you know, how do they treat the people who, you know, may or may not have anything to do with them being hired or not? Um, that goes a long way.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

And we've had, you know, Ted Wilman on before, and you mentioned one of the things that impressed you about him as he was interviewing, is walking through the halls and he saw some trash and picked it up along the way. Well, that's maybe not engaging with a person in that instance, it's engaging with your campus. And and that's the person that you wanted on your campus, someone that sees a problem and is ready to go find it and take care of it and fix it, whatever the scenario.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

You know, this next thing that we're going to talk about is I find it tough myself. And that's, you know, you have to promote your campus. Yeah. If you want to attract the best candidates, you have to be out there on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook. What are you doing in on your campus that uh you want people to know about? And believe it or not, teachers keep up with that.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Well, and I think I think now, even more than ever. You know, I think when we all got into education, there were piles and piles of resumes and applications. And, you know, there was one spot for 20 teachers, whatever the number is. Um, and and I think now it's more competitive with, you know, A, the more, you know, the need for more teachers, and B the number of teachers who are not going into education right now. So you have to tell your story as a campus. You know, what makes you unique? What makes you different than everybody else where where candidates are applying?

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, that's an interesting take for a leader because once upon a time the teachers were really having to sell themselves to you. Yeah. And now you've got campuses that, you know, are fighting for really good quality candidates, and you're having to tell your own story. So that's something leaders probably don't often think about, but something that we should.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

You know, the other side of social media is any candidate that you're thinking of hiring, you need to be Googling that person to see what their social media presence is, don't you think?

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Uh yes, a hundred percent. You know, I I know in my position that every candidate that comes through, I I try to do a deep dive. Um, and honestly, I I'm gonna give our newest generation some serious props. They've gotten really good about keeping things private.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Um, and you know, and I've talked to my own kids about that, is you know, it while we want to share everything that's going on, not everybody needs to know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

You don't need to see those bar scenes where you're taking those shots.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

No, no, those spring break trips, we don't need to see those. So, you know, I I I think it is, is you know, you as a hiring manager, look at Google, look at social media, always think about is that what you want the face of your school to be?

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah, because your students will do some digging, your parents, your students' parents will do some digging, and so they're gonna find those things. And I'd like to know about it before uh it shows up on your desk asking what it what is this.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Well, and I think I think in the interview process too, once the candidate's in the door, I mean, I think you as the hiring manager or or you know, committee, whatever you use on your campus, and and and I would push towards having a committee. You know, I I think having a couple of people around the table, um, I think is very important. But I think you need to be up front with the candidate of what your campus looks like and your expectations. Um, you know, I I've told people that, you know, when we're hiring, it's a two-way street. You know, you have to feel comfortable with us, and we have to feel comfortable with you. And and that's not necessarily means that that candidate's not a good teacher, but maybe it's not the right fit.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah. And and I I had that experience. I I was a principal to Title I middle school, and we had some some challenging situations. We had some students coming from poverty, we had some um situations in terms of student behavior that we were really working to build some discipline and structure within the building. And the first year or two I was there, what I what I would find myself trying to do is hire just the best possible person on paper, you know, someone that felt like they, you know, they've they've been successful somewhere in the past. Um, but what I found over time is that they might have been successful in a very, very different environment. Yeah. And maybe working in that Title I setting wasn't their passion. While while people while the people who might not have looked exactly the same on paper, but but showed up with a passion for our student population and a life mission of I'm going to help these students that came from challenges be successful. And maybe they had challenges of their own in their own younger life and and they had a teacher that inspired them and they wanted to be that for someone else. Like those are the teachers that in that setting really thrived. Um, some of those that were successful somewhere else, but it was at an entirely different student population, entirely different environment, they would be one year in W. Because it wasn't what they were passionate about.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Right. You know, and I think one of the one of the great things to really work on too is a couple of things. Number one is developing those partnerships with campus or colleges, universities. You know, I I love, we have some campuses on our on our in our district that when our when our uh student teach coordinator Robin reaches out, man, they're like, yes, we want a student teacher. We want a student teacher. Well, what does that do? Well, number one, it gets that potential candidate in your culture. For that student teacher, that is a fantastic interview right there. I mean, and and the number of student teachers that we hire every year, I mean, it's huge. Um, you know, I think that is a great way to find the right people for your campus.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Talking about passion for a particular community, too. One of the things that you know you guys promote as an HR team in our district is people who are graduates from our district that returned here to be educated. Like Michael Crowe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Um, no, I th I think there's something to that because when you when you talk about retention or things like that, um, there is a different sort of commitment or a different sort of loyalty or a different sort of feeling about a place when when this is where I grew up. This is a community that raised me. And I I still, you know, to this day see familiar faces from when I was a student here many, many years ago.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Well, I think um, you know, a little sneak peek. I think we're over 150 alumni work in GCISD. Well yeah. And and what's fun is, you know, this year alone, I've had a couple of my former students reach out and they're graduating education and want to come back. So I think you're spot on on that, Michael.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

I think the other thing that that communicates to people maybe who didn't grow up in that community is, you know, even if I grew up somewhere else, hey, these are people who that that came through here and want to come back. They had a positive experience. There's a reason. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

And that's not necessarily true of just small districts, because I know in large urban districts, when I was in Dallas, people were proud to say, hey, I was a product of DISD and I came back to teach.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

So as we're moving into this season, and like I said, this is kind of the starting point of the hiring season for the next year, um, you know, it's always a delicate balance between, you know, trying to jump early or kind of waiting to see if that quote unquote perfect candidate pops up. So what do you guys think about that?

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Going back to Crow's uh analogy, you know, the NFL draft, free agency. Yeah, you know, that first part of free agency is when the best uh candidates are out there. It's the same thing here, is at the beginning of the process. That's when your best candidates are going to be available.

unknown 24:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah, I I think two two parts to that. I think it's important to start early. You can't wait to start. That doesn't mean you have to jump on the first person that shows up. You know, you don't have to be in a rush to fill every position, but you need to be very proactive in starting early to begin looking. And I think about Kathleen Eckert is a principal that I worked with for a few years in another district. And she, by the time we got to late April, she maybe has one or two vacancies left. Because, you know, as soon as she knew kind of what the writing on the wall was and and what her staff was going to look like, what vacancies were gonna be there, she was proactive and she was looking. And by spring break, she was already filling spots.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Well, and I think some of that comes with as a principal or assistant principal, you're so busy and you're like, I don't have time to set up interviews right now, I don't have time to do this, but you do. You you need to find that time to carve out to uh get some of these top quality candidates in.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

And on the candidate side, if you're gonna tell yourself that, you know, this summer I'll start reaching out to campuses and principals, you're gonna be too late. Yes. At that point, they're they've filled many of the vacancies that they had. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, and as the candidate pools uh start shrinking, you need to be more careful about the candidates that you interview and the ones that you potentially set up to select. Because I would much rather wait and hire the right candidate at the right time than try to rush to hire the wrong candidate too soon. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

I think that's that balance. You have to start right away. Yes. But you don't have to finish right away. You know, you need to know what's out there in terms of candidates. You don't have to make the move right now, but you need to know what's out there or else someone's gonna get a jump on a great candidate. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

So as as you know, you're you're in that decision, you've done your interviews. So when when you look at making that decision to bring in someone new to your school or your department, your culture, you know, how do you kind of balance that, you know, decision making? Um, you know, you you have strong candidates, maybe you have a couple of strong candidates. What are those kind of look fors that you guys look at when you're uh kind of making that final decision?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

I'm I'm always impressed by someone who can speak to their desire for growth. Um, I think that they're really talented teachers and really talented principals and educators that we know that feel like they've got it figured out. I'm really good at what I do. Uh my results show that. You know, I'm I'm good with students, my scores are good, and I'm staying here complacent in what I do. And five years from now, I'm gonna look like the person I look like right now. So I really like when someone speaks to, to your point earlier, professional learning, things that they're reading, conferences that they're going to, ways that they want to be a better person in the future than and a better professional in the future than they are right now.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Yeah. I also look for what they say about their current or former employer and how they uh portray that scenario. If they are complaining, I am going to think, hmm, is this a complainer or is this a genuine situation? You know, are they going to be doing the same thing here?

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Yeah, please don't bash your current employer. Like that's that's an absolute deal breaker for me. Yeah. And it may be true. Everything that you're saying may be true, but but all I hear is that you're complaining about your ex, and then when we break up, you're gonna be complaining about me too.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

That's right. It doesn't look good on you.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Yeah, you know, I think it's I think it's one of the big things is look for that complimentary person, you know, maybe not identical, but someone who who makes your school better, your department better.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

And just because you had a tough time at your current situation, we don't want you to withhold that, but show us how you grew in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

You know, I think one of the things that I I often relied on when hiring is is the committees, like we talked about. And I think one of the key things as a leader is to, you know, really talk with your hiring committees about look force. Um, you know, we we in the HR department actually gave kind of a little training piece on you know things you can and can't ask in interviews that we want um, you know, our hiring committees to go for. And you know, oftentimes we'd really look at all right, what are the the pluses of a candidate, you know, the and and what are some of the deltas? Um and really as a you know, ultimately the the principal, the supervisors, the final decision maker, but listening to those hiring committees of things that they heard or they saw.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

And to your point on the final decision maker, something something that you guys do that I with committees that I think is really intelligent that people might not think about unless they're comfortable with that process is letting the committee know that we're not gonna walk out of this room at the end of today voting on who the person is gonna be. Ultimately, those tasked with doing the hiring are gonna make that decision, but we do want your feedback.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Do we all feel good about the candidates that we spoke to today?

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Or was there something that one of them said that just, oh man, no? And and maybe you didn't catch it as the as the hiring manager.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah. But in the end, that decision isn't gonna be made in this moment with the committee. We're gonna gather as much feedback as possible from the committee that we can use to move forward and make that decision.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

And you always make a recommendation.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Yes, always make the recommendation, yes, yes. HR will call you.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

You don't just tell them you got the job.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

What could go wrong?

SPEAKER_02 30:13

So hiring, believe it or not, is only the first step, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Because ultimately this person has to fit in with your culture, and you got to realize that they're new, they're gonna need support.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

So, you know, I think one of the one of the key things is is looking for those strong leaders on your campus to help mentor. Yes. You know, your your goal is to grow them and have them as long as possible. Um, and so what are you doing to get them assimilated to your culture? Um, you know, having people reach out, having those conversations, being willing to have kind of that open door policy, you want to come up, check things out, et cetera.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

And be deliberate about it. Don't just assume that, oh, they're going with a great uh team, you know, they'll take care of it. No, assign someone specifically to them.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

And think about where their classroom is placed. Dr. Anthony Mohammed wrote several books about campus culture, and he said, like, the person that they're positioned next to in that building is gonna have a big impact on their mindset moving forward. If you if you put that new person on your staff that was all happy and positive when they came in right next to the most negative person in the building, they're gonna have those passing period conversations and it's gonna potentially taint how that person sees your school and how they perform.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Yes, and it's a principle. We know that you get busy, but have some uh scheduled check-ins throughout the year with the new teachers.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yep. Be intentional about it and and really checking that pulse. So we've checked the resume, we've done the application, we got our hiring committee together, we understand our culture, we understand uh, you know, what we're looking for. So, what are some great sample questions that we could use really to kind of look at some of the stuff we talked about, you know, kind of that resiliency, that empathy, um, that growth mindset, um, those things, you know, that we want in all of our new employees.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

One of the things we talked about earlier is the importance of specificity. So I, you know, it anyone can give you that textbook answer. You want specific examples. And so I think you have to structure your questions, and we'll look at some of these, but I think you have to structure your questions in such a way that it encourages specific examples to be provided.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

When I think it's we are in a golden age right now with AI.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

And and don't be afraid to use Chat GPT or Gemini to kind of help develop some questions. Um, you know, you know kind of the structure and what you're looking for. So, you know, work work smarter, not harder.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

And to your point, in that golden age of AI, it's easy for any candidate to find great answers to potential interview questions. So that's why when you can say, tell me about this in practicality, tell me about a specific kid, tell me about a specific upset parent that you worked with, like the more you can pull out that specificity, the better.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Yes, because you they can fake their way using AI.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Yep. So when we're looking at like grit and resilience, what are a couple questions that we could give our listeners that they could use for this?

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Well, one you could use is tell me about a time you faced repeated setbacks with a specific student or project but kept pushing forward. What was your internal dialogue during that time? So you're asking for a specific student and situation.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yep. And then how did you kind of handle it? What was the what was the end result?

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Yeah. Another one potentially uh describe a long-term professional goal that took you several years to achieve. What kept you motivated when when progress felt slow?

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yep. And that's kind of that grip piece, you know. That's something that we've talked about for years, about that stick to it, you know, what what are you doing when things are hard? You know, we I I've told first year teachers, and we do this kind of an orientation, there there won't be a this job's hard.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

And, you know, you're gonna have days where you go home in tears and and wonder, God, why am I doing this? I mean, it happened to Gilbert on his first day of teaching, you know, he got in there, he's like, what am I doing? But you know what? You go home, set your alarm clock, and it's it's a brand new day the next day. So how can we see that in interviews that you know they're gonna set it, they're gonna, you know, put their shoes on the next day and and and show up in school.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

We talked about empathy and the importance of connecting with students. So, what are some questions related to that that we can ask?

SPEAKER_02 34:28

How about recall a time when a student deeply lets you down? How did you interact with them the very next day? That's a good one, right there. Students will let you down.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Yep, yep, exactly. But how do you reset?

SPEAKER_02 34:39

You know what? And students are looking at how you respond to them.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Yep. Sure. Um, what about tell me about a time you realized a student didn't feel like they belonged in your classroom? What specific steps did you take to change that and how did you know it worked? You know, I think once again that dives down past the surface level. Yeah, you you know, how did they respond? Um, how did this work out, et cetera?

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Yes, and and this could be an episode all by itself, but the impact of social media on students' uh well-being, you know, they are constantly looking to belong, and you're gonna have some students that feel left out. What about growth mindset and culture? Because we want people who want to get better, not people who are happy with where they are.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Yeah, as I as I said before, that's one of the most important things to me. And a question I like is when was the last time you felt truly inspired to learn something new outside of your required professional development? How has that impacted your work? So be we all have to go to PD, but what have you sought out on your own that's made you a better educator?

SPEAKER_01 35:42

What about share an example of a piece of constructive feedback you received from a supervisor that was hard to hear? How did you process it and what changed in your practice as a result?

SPEAKER_00 35:53

It can be tough to get as a candidate, but to Gilbert's point, it's okay to share a tough experience that you went through or a time that you didn't do something perfectly so long as then you pull it back to how did I learn and grow from that?

unknown 36:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Now we talked about culture to open the show. That's that's something that we've touched on uh so many different times. What are some of the things that you do to make sure that this person can contribute to the kind of culture you have and the kind of culture you want?

SPEAKER_01 36:18

So a great question is what is a unique value or perspective that you bring to our current team that might be missing?

SPEAKER_02 36:25

That's right. Because you know, this person is going to add to your team, whatever team they're going to be on. Or subtract from this team. Or subtract from this team. So that's a that's a very important question. Another one is tell me about a time you had to adjust your own working style to collaborate with a colleague who had a completely different personality than yours.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

I like that because I think so often how that question is is posed is talk about how you work with a team, and you're gonna get that generic, you know, response of how you know getting along well with others and and you know, lacking the specificity that we talked about, but you're asking about a specific time that you had to make adjustments, a specific time that maybe you didn't have the same style as someone else, but you had to make it work anyway.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

So the kind of that flexibility and being willing to be, you know, maybe give a little bit to get some. So what about kind of that that idea of integrity and ethics? What are some specific questions that hiring managers can use to dive a little bit deeper into that? Ethics. That's very, very key.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Because that's the only time you ever hear about uh teachers is when something goes wrong, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yeah, that Texas uh education code, uh, I know that well.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Unfortunately, the good the great things that our teachers do hardly ever go uh publicized, but it's always the mistakes. Yep. But one question is have you ever suffered or faced a difficult social situation at work because you chose to do what was right? What were the stakes? And do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Yeah, I mean you're gonna have to make some decisions over the over the course of your career, easy versus right. Right. And and sometimes people want to go the easy route where maybe it's not the right route.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Sure. How about describe a time you made a significant mistake in front of your students or your peers, and then how did you handle that cleanup process?

SPEAKER_02 38:14

You know, I think mistakes that teachers make are always great because it lets the students know that, hey, it's okay to make a mistake. And how you react to your own mistakes in the classroom will go a long way in determining how your students will react when they make mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yep. And haven't we said that same thing about leadership and being vulnerable and letting your staff see, hey, I too am human and make mistakes? And we would want teachers to do the same with their students.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

So these are just a couple of examples of some questions that that you can take and use in your in your hiring situations. Um, but you know, obviously this isn't all of them. You know, really look at your culture and and know what you need in specifics um and that right fit for your department or your school. As we're wrapping up uh this episode, we're gonna talk a little bit about some of those, you know, kind of keys to remember when you're hiring. And and and I'll kind of kick it off. And we talked a little bit about it earlier is while we want to get the candidate in there quickly, take your time.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Yes, do the right thing, hire the right candidate rather than just someone to fill a spot.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yes. I think in the course of all of our careers, we've made a bad hire. Yes. And you know maybe two. And and I can think of one in particular that my gut was telling me, but we are getting late in the season, and I really need this position, so I'm gonna take a flyer. And I spent all the next year dealing with that situation. Um, and they lasted a year, but I should have listened to my gut, hit the pause button, and and you know, taken a little more time.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Yes, that's very important. Your your gut feeling is telling you something, and I had a very similar situation. Um, you know, first impressions matter. And when I I remember this particular candidate, I saw them and I said, no, no, this is not gonna be the right candidate. But as we sat down and started the interview, they began uh, you know, saying all the right things. And by the end of the interview, they had basically changed my mind.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

They could play the game.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Yes, they could play the game. Um, but it ended up that my first impression was right all along. And so uh like you, it took a year, and unfortunately, um that's that's what it's gonna take if you make a mistake.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

Yeah. So take your time, trust your gut. Yeah, and sometimes that can even create a difficult situation for you as a leader. I remember a similar scenario where there's a candidate with plenty of red flags that I was fully aware of, but I was so worried about having someone in the room by the time the year started that I ignored glaring red flags simply because we didn't have a better option in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

But the reality in hindsight is we would have been better off starting the year with a long-term substitute until we found a better candidate than than going with someone that I knew was going to be an inappropriate fit there.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yep. Well, and I think I think there are times where you you go through the interview process and you know you have a couple of good candidates, but sometimes you're trying to, you know, fit that square peg in a round hole, and and it just doesn't work. And and that doesn't mean they're not going to be a great educator, but maybe just not a great educator on your campus. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Check your references. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

You know, I I've seen that from both the principal perspective and and and our perspective and in human resources, is you know, we are very adamant that our hiring managers dig in references. Um, and what we've seen over the probably the last five to six years is other places not reaching out for references. Yeah. And that is just shocking to me.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

And as a principal, sometimes I would see that as a burden on me. Why do I have to check references? They interviewed great. I know they are going to be great, but you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

And then you pick up that phone and you make the phone call, and they're like, Um, yes, please check with our human resources department. And and you know, I I think one of the great things about education is that it's a small world. Yes. Um, and you know, the the candidate is going to put the references on there that they know. Um, you know, dig a little bit. Yes. Um, you know, I I know we talked about Ted earlier. If I needed a coach reference, it took them about two phone calls to figure out someone who knew someone. Um, you know, and and that's not a hard thing, and it's particularly in the area we are here in the Metroplex, is it takes a couple of phone calls. You know, I've I've reached out to Michael before. Hey, come down to my office, I got a question. And and he could usually find something for me from other places that he worked.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Yeah, we've all, you know, and to your point here in the Metroplex, we've all worked with people at all the neighboring districts. And and so, you know, if you're really wanting to do your due diligence and take the time to find out, you know, someone's real work performance and and their real potential culture fit, you can find that out pretty quickly with a couple of phone calls.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Yeah. Education is like the Kevin Bacon six degrees of separation, you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Exactly. So as we kind of wrap up, a couple of things to just kind of remember, you know, take your time, do those reference checks. Don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole. You know, and and kind of the final thing, um, you know, I think that's important for hiring managers to remember is, you know, when you're doing your reference checks, when you're in the interview process, um, when you're going through the application, you know, uh, Dr. Ryan used to always say is when they tell you who they are, believe them. Um, and and you know, I think, I think oftentimes we as hiring managers go, okay, maybe they're, like you said, Michael, there's a little red flag here. But I can I can help change that. Um, you know, if you call the references and they say, yeah, you know, they're really good in the classroom, but you know, maybe don't get along with others as well. Or, you know, they've had some attendance issues. You know, when they tell you who they are, believe them because that often does not change.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Old Dr. Phil used to say the best predictor of future behavior is prior behavior. So exactly. Exactly. Sometimes we want to make it work so bad that we overlook those things, but to your point, believe it when you see it. Absolutely. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

So, listeners, if we've forgotten anything, um, please let us know. Uh, we'd love that feedback.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Absolutely. We're still learning and growing right alongside you guys. So we'd love any sample questions that you come up with, too.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

All right, are you guys ready for some on tap?

SPEAKER_00 44:46

I'm always ready for some on tap. Come on, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

All right, welcome back, gentlemen. Um, we're on tap today. We got some fun stuff. We are going to share two of our favorite classic video games.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

I think this is a really fitting topic to do around spring break because I remember as a kid, uh, me and the buddies, man, we'd run over to Blockbuster Video and and and see if they have this game or that game, and we would spend hours playing video games.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Our younger listeners might not know what Blockbuster is, but it was pretty epic. Just know that.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

All right, Crow, what you got?

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Gosh, I I'm gonna start out with one of my all-time favorites, and I was I was always more of a sports game kind of person, but one of my all-time favorites. I love the original Tecmo Bowl, but I'm gonna go with Tecmo Super Bowl, which was the follow-up. It was back on the original Nintendo Entertainment System, some NFL football. Um, this is one of those where you could drop back to your own goal line and make a hundred-yard pass, and and uh it didn't not necessarily the most realistic game, but man, was it fun to play? Was Bo Jackson in this bo Jackson? Absolutely. You could go Bo Jackson, Marcus Allen. I like to go with the Chiefs, and I would go with uh Nigerian Nightmare, Christian O'Coy, yeah, yeah. Because then on defense I had Derek Thomas and I could get after him with Derek Thomas. So that was my you you'll appreciate that. It was my go-to team.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

I love that. I love that. Yes. Gilbert, what do you got?

SPEAKER_02 46:18

All right, so Crow, there used to be a time where where mom and pop stores used to have one or two video games uh in their lobby there. Or Pizza Hut. Pizza Hut would always ask that.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Remember the little Pizza Hut table.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

So anyway, my game is asteroids. Okay, and it was one of the very first video games you could tell by the graphics. The the asteroids were actually little lines that were, you know, oddly shaped, and you had a little triangle for an airplane and little dots that went out as missiles. And so your goal was to get rid of all the asteroids before they crashed into your triangle or plane. Uh, the problem was that the big asteroids, when you shot them, would break up into little asteroids and eventually they would fill up the screen. And unless you were an expert like I used to be, then you would finish off a level and then more asteroids would come. Oh, and and I forgot, also, there are UFOs that would come out periodically and try to shoot you down as you're trying to shoot the asteroids.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

That's a good game, but it stresses me out. It really does.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

They're just inching closer and closer and closer, and I'm, you know, there's too many of them to so believe it or not, I became so good that I would go to the store, the mom and pop shop, I would put in a quarter, and I would play with that quarter for hours.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

You just annoyed the crap out of the people behind you on the correct, yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

And and people knew that, hey, if you were this good, you could hog the game.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

So at the end, did you type in your initials to the leaderboards?

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Oh, yes, sir. You had a top 10 that you had to type your three initials on there.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Well, one of my early, early uh video games that I absolutely loved for Nintendo. The original Nintendo was Contra. And and Contra, you could you could play it as one or two players, um and and I mean you were kind of running through the the different levels, and you could up your guns that you had, and and you had, you know, at the end you had to, you know, kill the big lord or whatever it is. And it's just that game that I constantly remember as uh playing as a kid. That was a fun one.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

All right, Crow, what's your second one?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Man, I'm I'm struggling here because I've got on my list what I think is is probably one of the best video games of all time, if not the best, which is Super Mario Brothers 3. And I I remember I remember it being my birthday. There was a movie that came out around that time called The Wizard. There was like there was like a big video game competition, and and first access to Super Mario Super Mario Bros. 3 was like the the cool ending to the movie, and I had friends over and we were waiting to toys or us and we finally got our copy. And I think it's just one of the coolest games ever. But as I'm sitting here thinking and looking at our list, I'm realizing realizing when I saw Mario, I left off Mario Kart also. Mario Kart. That one was fantastic. We still will play that to on Wii. Oh, you're racing, you're shooting shells at your friends, you're you're dropping banana peels. Like I don't know that I should have left that one off. So I've got a tie for my first place.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

I think you could put the whole Mario brand in that.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

That makes me feel better. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

All right, another one of mine is another old school. It's Donkey Kong again, Nintendo. Uh you have Mario who's trying to rescue the princess from the giant ape while he's trying to drop barrels, and you have to jump over the barrels as you're going up a ramp, and then you go up to the next ramp, and that was awesome for me.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Was that was that next to the asteroids machine at the mom and pop store?

SPEAKER_02 49:52

It was, yes. But I was never as good at Donkey Kong as I was at Asteroids.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

That's the one that that's the one that other people got to play while they were waiting for Dr. G to finish on Astro.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

That's right, yes. You know, uh the one, and and there are so many great games out there that you know we played. My earliest memory of a video game was as a kid. My parents bought a Commodore 64. Ah, yes, and ended up getting Miss Pac-Man. And I was enamored by Miss Pac-Man to the point where, and and if my parents are listening, uh, that I I faked not feeling well.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Oh, you went Ferris Bueller on that.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

I went Fairless Bueller so I could spend uh that Monday after we got it over the weekend to stay home and play Miss Pac-Man.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Forget going to the Cubs game. I'm playing Miss Pac-Man on my sick day.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

David Dennings Day Off.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

It was. It was, yeah, it wasn't quite as exciting as Ferris, but I I I vividly remember that. And um, you know, sorry, elementary school for uh losing a day of ADA. I can pay that back to you. Um, but man, I just remember being enamored by uh by playing Miss Pac-Man.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Just having this conversation has given me those feelings of nostalgia, and I know the same is probably happening for our listeners. So we would love to hear about some of the games that you guys played that you feel like are all-time classics. Email those to us at info at edleadershipontap.com. That's info at edleadershipontap.com.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Or share those on our social of Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Also, you can uh send us a text through the app by clicking on the link that says send a text through whichever service you listen to your podcasts in. We also would love to hear anything about hiring practices that you want to share so we can share in our next episode. All right.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Until then, keep leading.